Notion won't build HubSpot, their users will

[00:00.10] Eric: [upbeat music] I feel like listeners maybe have questions about my obsession with Notion. [00:15.43] John: I have questions. This is a Notion intervention. [00:16.30] Eric: Because [laughs] Because- This is the third episode, and- [00:22.21] John: I prompted the second one. You started it, but then-... I came to you and was like-... "You know, we need to do another one. I, I need to, like..." Yeah. [00:24.44] Eric: I started it Yeah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so let's do a quick recap. So I'll s- I'll say what started it. So-... I wrote a blog post about Notion being HubSpot's biggest threat. And the basic premise is that AI has created really counterintuitive competitive dynamics-... in the market, right? And so most people think about Notion as, like, a document editor. [00:33.71] John: Okay [00:39.34] John: Yes. [00:44.84] John: Mm-hmm [00:51.75] John: Yes. [00:52.88] Eric: You know? Um... [00:54.28] John: Yeah. It is a, like a digital notebook. [00:56.20] Eric: Yes. A digital notebook. Or, you know, okay, so I would say at a baseline, that's how a lot of people sort of-... their initial reaction is like, okay-... you open it up, and there's just a blank-... page, right? Uh, I mean, now you open up, and there's a lot more, and agents and templates-... and whatever, right? Um, or a wiki. An internal wiki. Yes. Exactly, exactly. Um, but if you... So Notion's done mu- so two things. I will summarize this succinctly, so two things. One, underneath everything in Notion is a database. So even if you have two documents. [01:01.07] John: Yeah Yeah Yeah [01:07.95] John: Right [01:11.98] John: Yeah, wiki. SharePoint. And stacks. [01:32.01] Eric: So let's say I open a document, I give the document a title, and I write an introductory sentence in the document. I can actually reference that in another document or in a table, or, and you can actually create an Airtable-esque database-... spreadsheet-feeling data-... database. It's an a- it's actually like a database-... in Notion. And so literally every line, you know, or every, like, every line that you create in a document is, is a database entry. So the document itself is a database. And then they actually expose the database as something that you can interact with, which is a, like, more limited spreadsheet type feel. You know, it's not like you can do the cra- you can't... It's not Microsoft Excel. But it's super powerful, and you can create relationships and lookups between databases. Right? And so [01:47.06] John: Yes Yeah Yeah. Yep [02:01.93] John: Right. [02:13.84] John: Right. [02:18.81] John: Yes. [02:21.71] Eric: that's very interesting. So that's number one. Notion's a database. Number two, they've made some really interesting acquisitions, or they've launched some interesting products and made-... interesting acquisitions. So, um, they bought a calendar company called Cron, and so the, now there's Notion Calendar. Um, which is great, by the way. [02:23.84] John: Yes. [02:30.37] John: And, yeah [02:37.84] John: Yep. [02:42.25] Eric: Have you used it? That's great. Um- [02:43.84] John: A little bit. Okay [02:47.73] Eric: ... and then second, they launched an email tool, like an email- [02:52.86] John: That was, that was, they built it. They didn't buy someone else. I don't remember. Okay. Haven't really used the email tool. I actually have a confession I need to make after you finish this. It'll be good. [02:55.12] Eric: I, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I think they built it, but I'm not sure. Right. Okay. I can't wait. Uh, by the way, we do all our podcast episode planning and stuff in the Notion-... database, right? Okay. They've launched Agents. We use Notion very heavily at Vercel-... because, you know, and so I'm-... and, and I use the Notion AI stuff increasingly more. Like it's, it has gotten unbelievably good in the last six months. And they recently launched Agents. So all that to say, the reason this whole thing started was I started thinking about it, and I was like, okay, there were really advanced people creating a bunch of templates and a bunch of-... like database things into whatever that would allow people to run their entire business off of Notion. But it was more of, like, savvy tech-forward knowledge workers-... you know, who liked the form factor of Notion, you know, who could, like, wire up all these integrations to sort of make it work. You know, but at scale, it's hard. I mean, I built, like, very complex quarterly planning cross-team stuff in Notion. Um, and it's just unruly at scale, and updating, it's hard, and like-... all that sort of stuff, right? But all of that goes away with AI. The agents can do literally all of that. So it doesn't matter if something's messy. It can clean it up. So then I started thinking, "Well, this is very interesting," because they have calendar, they have email. You have a database. You have document management. I'm like, this is a business operating system. They're only missing a few components to compete with HubSpot, to be a CRM, you know, a customer support tool, whatever, right? Like website hosting, you know, all that, which you can publish pages on Notion. It's primitive, right? And I was like, all they need is marketing automation. And they can, they could take over-... HubSpot in the-... small to medium business-... space. And, and it will be so much better than Notion because of AI. Because it's like, oh, guess what? My business model changed, so my CRM's out of date. Literally-... have an agent rebuild it-... to, like, match your new business model. Anyways, so I wrote the blog post that we talked about it, and I think both agreed generally that it's totally doable, especially-... since they have a-... huge war chest of cash. Then you, [03:06.90] John: We do [03:13.02] John: Mm-hmm Yeah [03:32.71] John: Mm-hmm [03:44.59] John: Mm-hmm [04:01.19] John: Yeah [04:04.30] John: Yes. [04:14.10] John: Yeah. [04:35.46] John: Yeah Mm-hmm Yeah Yep, just make a little acquisition. [04:43.01] John: Yeah. [04:49.54] John: Right Right [04:59.60] John: Yeah Yep Yep. [05:05.25] Eric: you go-... back on the show, and we have a second episode, and you challenged the premise a little bit, which was great. [05:05.49] John: I prompted the video [05:11.41] John: Right. Okay. Do you... So, and the, the, just to recap that part. The premise was like, I don't know about this. I actually think they need to rebuild a lot of internal stuff to, like, make this work long term. I think there's a, a lot of, like, pluses to text files on a computer-... that the AI can use. It really was. And, and- [05:14.48] Eric: Yep. [05:26.60] Eric: Yep It was an architecture question. Are the agents gonna be as good as they could possibly be-... because their architecture is not what people are building for the best agents today? [05:32.48] John: Right Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, so I gotta make my confession. Notion stresses me out. [05:39.57] Eric: Okay. [laughs] [05:43.50] John: Every company I've ever worked with that uses it, it stresses me out. [05:46.75] Eric: Why? [05:47.48] John: I can never find anything, including things that I've created. And now I haven't used the AI stuff a lot. So most of this is, like, pre-AI. And then I'm on a f- I think a few plans where they just haven't, like, paid for the AI part-... or they don't have, like, the best AI part. So I probably don't actually know how good the AI is. But it stresses me out 'cause I feel like I make things and I can't find them. Which really bothers me [05:53.81] Eric: Okay. Yep. [06:00.16] Eric: Mm-hmm Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [06:07.66] Eric: Yeah. 'Cause then you try to organize, but then it's buried, and, like, you create a new page within another page and- [06:13.72] John: Well, exactly. And I, and then I, and then I end up in these time sucks of reorganizing Notion-... like, on way too-... often of a cadence [06:19.11] Eric: Mm-hmm. Right And-... you can't create folders in the sidebar. Um, you know, so it's not like a file tree. Uh, not, not a file tree in the sense of like- Right. Right. Right. [06:24.47] John: Right. [06:27.75] John: Yeah. It... Like a normal computer would be. It stresses me out. And-... and here's what I've done instead, if you wanna know. [06:34.23] Eric: Okay I do. I do. [06:38.73] John: And, and I get that this wouldn't work for people, like, outside of tech. I only work in Git repos now for everything. I have an AI work life repo, which is like anytime I start doing a thing that doesn't fit into a current-... project, I just do it in there. And I move it later. I have a- [06:46.31] Eric: Yeah. [06:53.73] Eric: Mm-hmm I've started- Yep. Yep. You just create a new folder and- Yep. Yep. [07:00.51] John: Yeah. It's just a new folder in there, and I just work in there and do it. I have another one that I started this week for my team. So we use this awesome m- meet- uh, meeting recording tool called Granola, which I think you use-... as well, or you've used in the past. [07:05.73] Eric: Mm-hmm. [07:11.35] Eric: Mm-hmm We use Notion now. [07:14.57] John: Okay. [laughs] All right, fine. All right. Anyways. Yeah, I know. So with Granola, I have, um, I have all of my meetings for the entire team, the AI summary, and full transcript auto-syncing to a organized GitHub repo. Every single meeting we ever have. [07:16.73] Eric: [laughs] I had to. [07:33.97] Eric: Mm. That is so smart. It's so great. Yep. [07:38.41] John: It's so great. And they're just marked down files. And it... And then there's, like, a very simple tool that we can use where it's like-... you're working on something and you're like, "I think we talked about that in that meeting," and it's just like-... shortcuts. And like, uh, go check. Yeah. So that's my confession. Notion stresses me out. Um, what, what I think is fun to talk about, and this is why we're doing V3 of this-... is on the architecture question I brought up last time, there's been some developments. As far as... 'Cause I'm thinking, "Oh, they're gonna have to redo this and do this." So tell us what they actually did. 'Cause it actually directly relates to your job. [07:45.22] Eric: Mm-hmm [07:48.29] Eric: Yeah Amazing. It's just unbelievable. [07:53.81] Eric: Yep. [07:59.61] Eric: Mm-hmm [08:04.89] Eric: There have been major developments. [08:10.37] Eric: Okay. Can I respond to your confession, though, first? Okay. Can we... Can I do just a little bit of thing? Yeah [08:14.28] John: Sure. Sure. Yeah. I thought, I thought I was gonna get around it-... but yeah, let's do it. [08:18.77] Eric: Which I should have clarified, I should have clarified this way before we went on this, like, multi-episode journey discussing Notion. But I have the same... I, I ran into the same problems with Notion, but the reason I still have such strong conviction about them, [08:26.21] John: Okay. [08:37.77] Eric: like, being a winner in this age, and who knows... Well, actually, no. We do have a little bit more insight now into, like, my theory on them, you know, taking on HubSpot. But the form factor is so approachable, but then as you start to use it at scale-... [08:57.73] John: Mm-hmm [08:59.55] Eric: it becomes, it becomes more difficult. It becomes cumbersome. It's hard to find stuff. Like, there are just some issues there, right? Their AI solves all of that, and if it solves all of that, the form factor is so approachable and so natural. That's why I'm very bullish on it. Like, the... You're... That... I guess maybe what I'm saying is I experienced the same issues, but then I... It's just a solved problem now. [09:04.15] John: Mm-hmm. [09:14.81] John: Okay. [09:23.19] John: Well, but... So here's my thing. Here's my in favor of just use Git, uh, for technical people. I realize it doesn't work for a lot of people. The forced review process of, like, somebody started to... I or somebody else decided to reorganize everything. And somebody has to, like, approve it or it has to go through a-... pull request like process. If I can rewind-... to like-... oh, like, actually, I didn't wanna re... That, that's the form factor where if Notion had, like, AI can rewind everything, not document by document, but like I reorganized everything-... I changed my mind. Yeah. And then-... version control. And then the... And then some kind of approval process of, like, somebody else on the team decided to reorganize all this stuff. And like, "No, like, we're not doing that." Like, "Undo it." Um- [09:28.87] Eric: Mm-hmm. [09:37.49] Eric: Mm-hmm. [09:41.23] Eric: Mm Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, yeah [09:56.21] Eric: Mm. It has a good history. Yeah Basically. Yeah, yeah. Version control Yeah, which- [10:04.93] Eric: Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Let me say this another way. I agree with you, and my workflow is actually... A lot of my workflow is trending towards just using Git repositories-... for the same-... the same reason that you are... for the reasons that you're describing. Right? There's version history. There's a lot of stuff, right? [10:16.63] John: Mm-hmm Yeah [10:22.63] John: Yep. Yeah. [10:26.69] Eric: But what does everyone else do? 'Cause that's not... The world isn't gonna do that. Right? And Notion's... That's, that's my whole premise, um-... is that Notion essentially, like, just obfuscates that because not everyone needs that. Um-... and sort of makes that possible [10:29.69] John: Yeah. Right. [10:33.63] John: Yeah [10:38.81] John: Right. But, but they should just-... duplicate the exact same, in my opinion, duplicate the exact same thing, but just have the graphical piece to it or just have the agent do it. Either would be fine. Which maybe they'll do. [10:49.49] Eric: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So here's, here's the development-... on this. Hot take. Well, it's not... Well, it's a technical, technological development, so. I wrote a... Not, it wasn't just me, but I worked with two people on the engineering team to... on the Vercel engineering team-... to write a blog post announcing... It's basically a customer story about Notion [10:55.33] John: Okay Hot take. [11:01.87] John: Okay. [11:15.45] John: Mm-hmm [11:21.87] Eric: using a Vercel feature called Vercel Sandbox. [11:24.93] John: Mm-hmm. [11:26.41] Eric: And a, um... I will give a, a very high level explanation. You're probably even better to give a high level explanation, right? But you can create custom agents in Notion-... that will work across integrations. So a good example is, um- [11:40.53] John: Yes [11:46.87] John: Like a better version of what GPTs were with OpenAI. [11:50.53] Eric: A better version of what GPTs were, yeah. And, and much more connected, right? So- [11:53.34] John: Okay. Yeah. Yeah, the integration part is... 'Cause GPTs you could technically do some, but it was, like, really, like, a lot of work and clunky to, to get it to communicate with other tools. [12:04.53] Eric: Right. Exactly. So you can wire Notion up. I mean, it's very flexible. You can wire it up to MCP. You can wire it up to APIs.They have a ton of direct integrations-... you know, with other tools, right? So one example, we don't actually do this, but, you know, you can connect it to Slack. So let's say... And, you know, we, uh, we, again, we haven't built this workflow 'cause we have some other pre-existing workflows and, you know, are actually exploring some interesting things with the process around using Git repos for creating content-... on the content team at Vercel. But, like, one idea I thought of is, okay, if a Slack message... So you can connect Slack, so you can basically pull certain channels. And so you could say, "Look for messages that kind of are, you know, fee- look and feel like this that could potentially-... be a blog post." Um, extract the stuff from the message, generate, like, a draft doc and-... you know, a draft document or outline in Notion, and then create a Linear issue 'cause the content team has a Linear, you know, we have a Kanban board-... that we track. Right? And create a Linear issue, and put it in triage that someone can pick up and look at the draft. And so that way, it's sort of an automated way-... to use one of Notion's agents to mine, you know, certain Slack channels for potential blog posts. Right? Across tools. Actually, that's... A- and just to be able to, like, click around and build that is amazing. Because you could build that, and it's not, like, insane, but it's also, like, you know, even if you had Claude Code build that, it would be, you know, pulling Slack channels and parsing the responses and doing all that sort of stuff, then connecting with the Notion API. You know, then, you know, doing all of that is totally doable, and Claude could do it, but there's just a lot of complexity. It's, you know, a lot of code. Actually, the Chat SDK would make that very-... easy to, like, pull Slack channels. [12:08.46] John: Yeah. [12:14.23] John: Yeah [12:23.85] John: Okay. [12:34.28] John: Mm-hmm Yeah. [12:43.43] John: Yep. [12:50.51] John: Yeah [12:56.91] John: Mm-hmm [13:04.32] John: Yeah Mm-hmm. [13:09.16] John: Yeah. Mm-hmm [13:16.23] John: Yep. [13:23.65] John: Sure. [13:39.75] John: Mm-hmm. [13:46.60] John: Yeah. Yeah But also, a lot of this stuff, I think eventually t- for companies is gonna come down to maintenance. And, and when, when are we at the point where not only can you have the thing build it, like the AI build it-... but it can also competently maintain it? And whenever we hit that, like, I mean, that's, that's a major breakthrough. But until then... And, and we're not there yet. Until then, like, uh, there's that, and, and then there's some practical of, like, some people, like, just don't maybe quite have the skill set to, you know, to direct. Some people don't know what [chuckles] they want-... and would rather just, like, use something that's-... that works [13:55.97] Eric: Yes. [14:03.13] Eric: Mm-hmm Yeah. [14:11.36] Eric: Major breakthrough. [14:25.47] Eric: Yeah Well, it also gets-... it also gets complicated. If we, if we played this out and we said, okay, you know, one of the big questions is, like, how you actually would do something like that in Slack, right? So you, first of all, you have to figure out authorization. You have to create a Slack. You know? You, you have to create a Slack bot. Do you put the Slack bot on channels? Do you use another mechanism where you're essentially impersonating a user who a- already has access to the channels? That's more limiting. You know, how often do you wanna pull, you know, for different things? How do you parse the content? Like, how do you deal with threading? [14:37.05] John: Mm-hmm. [14:40.87] John: Right. [14:49.86] John: Right. Right. [14:57.45] John: And, and we can expect some intentional friction there probably forever whenever you get outside the walls of one company to another company. [15:07.05] Eric: Yeah, but Notion just be- at the enterprise level, again, I'm speaking from, like, the Vercel standpoint, but it doesn't, you know, it doesn't matter. You use Slack, and you can integrate. I don't know what the pricing tiers are, but they just-... have a great secure-... authorized integration with Slack. [15:15.62] John: Yeah No, no For sure, but if I were to do it myself-... and I'm gonna try to, like, connect these two separate tools, probably there's gonna be some in- intentional friction there, like, for me to just, like-... do it myself. Whether, whether it's-... intentional for security purposes-... like, that's always gonna be there to some extent. [15:19.55] Eric: Mm-hmm [15:28.23] Eric: Yeah Oh, right. Right. Right, right Mm-hmm Or because the companies are somewhat competitive. [15:35.87] John: Or because the companies are somewhat competitive, and they only wanna do the deep integration with select partners. So it's like a controlled ecosystem. So-... but I think that's the value, like, to argue your point, the value that, that Notion can bring is they can figure out the right partnerships to have the deep integrations that just work every time and are good, that are, like, really practical and useful. [15:41.07] Eric: Yep. Yeah, yeah, exactly, right. And so, yeah, and Slack's- Everyone's gonna do it with Slack [15:56.49] Eric: Right. And you can build agents around them, right? And it's, it's super cool. By the way, their marketing campaign around this in-app was just so good. [15:58.65] John: Yes. [16:06.29] Eric: Um, when they did... They, they, they had it in, you know, beta for a while. [16:10.23] John: Yeah. [16:11.71] Eric: But when they launched it, and it sort of went, I don't know, generally available or, like-... public beta or whatever, you open Notion... Uh, it may have happened, like, last week or earlier this week. And it was meet the night shift. [16:15.03] John: Mm-hmm [16:21.46] John: Right. Oh, yeah. I saw that. Yeah, that is clever. Yeah. [16:25.33] Eric: It was great. Really clever. Okay. [16:28.17] John: I immediately got paywalled. [laughs] It's okay. [16:30.49] Eric: Oh, yeah. That is actually, my perspective on this is skewed because we sort of get to use the most awesome version of it. But, um, [16:37.02] John: Yeah. [16:40.17] Eric: that's a separate conversation. We'll do another episode. We'll just keep doing this until we drive it into the ground. But all that to say, the reason we were talking about a third one was my original hypothesis about Notion being able to take on HubSpot-... I think will... It, it'll be interesting because it is the... It'll be interesting because they could do that, but HubSpot's go-to-market around that is very different from Notion's-... like, go-to-market around that, right? Um, but [16:53.91] John: Yes [17:08.39] John: Mm-hmm Yeah. [17:14.79] Eric: I worked on a... Circling all the way back, so I worked on a blog post with a couple of our engineers who... That was basically a customer story about how Notion is running sandboxes. And [17:25.77] John: Yep. [17:28.97] Eric: a very quick explanation of sandboxes is that they are secure, isolated environments that can, um... It's a computer. [17:39.35] John: It's a computer in the cloud. [17:40.75] Eric: It is a computer in the cloud, and it's completely isolated. And so... And that's im- the, the reason that's important is you can run code in the, in the sandbox without it impacting other systems or-... without it accessing, you know, sensitive data. [17:54.10] John: Yeah [17:57.53] John: Yeah, or specific guardrails on what it can access. 'Cause-... 'cause they're not useful unless they can access something. You know? [18:00.05] Eric: Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, configurable guardrails Yes. Yeah. Um, and so Notion launched this thing called Notion Workers, and so if you think about, think about the agent that I just described. So-Pulls for a Slack message, creates a draft, you know, a draft blog post, then creates an issue in Linear-... you know, for someone on the content team-... to review it. Right. Okay. [18:23.52] John: Mm-hmm Right [18:28.83] Eric: We also... I, I'm just making this up on the fly. But we also have this internal, like, repository of really valuable information about, you know, for the content team, and-... the, the information is, is things like our voice and tone guide, you know, our entire history of blog posts, knowledge base-... articles, you know, sort of-... not entire history, actually. Like a curated set of like this is representative of our, like, body of work, right? And so we can use that as, you know, voice and tone check, you know, and other things like that as we create content, right? Um, and but that's just a bunch of files, right? And so let's say that I wanted to, like, access that, um, via API-... to inform the dra- the draft of the blog post that's being created, right? So then the agent flow would be it pulls through a Slack channel, finds an interesting message. Like, creates a blog draft and then hits the API, you know, to scan our voice and tone guide or, you know, look up relevant information to, like, update the draft based on, um, you know, relevant information that we already have in our repository-... that sort of in- informs the way that we think about content, right? If I, if I wanna do that, you know, previously there was no way to create a workflow that allowed me to run arbitrary code to hit that API or access that file store. Right? In Notion. Which makes sense 'cause you don't... I mean, it, it, it's a s- you know, it's untenable for Notion to just let people run arbitrary code because-... they could try to access sensitive information. And your... You can't run that on your production systems, obviously. And so sandbox i- Notion Workers is a solution to this, and they're built on Vercel sandboxes. And so what a Notion Worker would do- [18:38.91] John: Yeah [18:46.61] John: Yeah Yeah [19:11.89] John: Right [19:22.08] John: Mm-hmm. [19:37.00] John: Right [19:53.51] John: Okay. Sure, yeah. Mm-hmm. [20:02.83] John: Right Yeah, yeah, sure. Yep. [20:13.23] John: Yep. For everybody, not just for you guys using it. Just to clarify. Yeah. Right. [20:18.21] Eric: Yes, yeah. For everybo- This is a feature. Yeah, this is a feature. So anyways, uh, the way that we would do that at Vercel, but anyone could do something like this, is I would just write code in a Notion Worker-... and then add that Notion Worker into the agent flow. So it'd be like look up Slack, find an interesting message, create a draft of a document-... take the content from that document, and then, you know, run, make an a... And then I would have a Notion Worker that says, "Here's a, make an API call, look for this information, use an LLM to summarize it, and then rewrite the draft," you know? Or, or-... basically-... come back with a summary, and then hand it back to Notion AI to rewrite the draft-... you know, before the Linear issue is created or whatever. Um, and this is a huge deal, I think, because it allows people to build almost any sort of, like, workflow. Um, and so I mean, some of the examples in the blog post are, like, syncing CRM data-... on some sort of schedule, right? [20:28.35] John: Mm-hmm [20:32.17] John: Right. [20:36.23] John: Mm-hmm [20:53.23] John: Yeah Yeah [20:57.63] John: Right [21:13.89] John: Yeah. [21:20.03] John: Sure Between various systems. [21:23.83] Eric: Between various systems, right. Um, all sorts of, you know, agentic workflows, you know, which is really interesting. So all this to say, I went through the bother of having another episode on Notion on Token Intelligence to say, I have modified my views on Notion going after HubSpot-... formally, because with this sort of the beginnings of a developer platform on Notion, they are going to have their users build it for them. [21:43.17] John: Okay [21:56.88] John: Sure. Well, and then they- And then they're basically in an ERP space eventually. Yeah. Just run your business on Notion. [21:57.58] Eric: Right? Like- Which is- Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Which is brilliant. It's absolutely brilliant. [22:05.81] John: Yeah. Yeah. And, and then you wait the longest possible to do, like, HR systems and accounting systems and stuff, and you try to eat everything else first. And then maybe one day you do those too. [22:14.99] Eric: Totally. Totally. I mean, uh, I think it's absolutely brilliant. Right? Um, and they have a huge marketplace. That's the other thing that I actually forgot about. [22:20.25] John: Yeah. [22:25.52] John: I always forget about that, yeah. [22:27.25] Eric: I mean, there are people who make, like, millions of dollars I think. [22:29.07] John: Yeah, you can buy templates-... and, and I'm sure you'll be able to buy agents. [22:30.69] Eric: Um [22:33.85] Eric: Right. So I mean, that's-... it's awesome. Like, it... I mean, it just is so brilliant, where I was like, man, they could, they could totally take out HubSpot, which they can, and then I realized, like, "Oh." They're just going to let someone else [laughs] figure out how to do that. And they'll be the platform on it. It's, uh, it is such a brilliant platform play. It's been incredible to see them navigate this environment. So there you go, another Notion episode. [22:36.50] John: Yeah Yeah. [22:46.21] John: They have bigger ambitions than that. [22:50.21] John: Yeah. Yeah. [22:57.85] John: Yeah. There you go. Closing remarks on Notion for me. No, for me. Yeah. [23:03.57] Eric: For me or you? For me. Okay. Yeah, yeah, of... Yeah, absolutely. Are you- I was gonna say. [laughs] Please just repeat what you said before. [23:07.54] John: Still stresses me out. [laughs] [23:11.95] John: Yep. Yep. A- and, and I think w- let me close with this. Like, here's my, my counterpoint to where, like, I don't wanna say I'm skeptical. I actually think they have a phenomenal brand and, like, execute at a really high level. The problem for me is the... I have not found a, again, technical persona here. I've not found a better form factor to survive the hurricane of change than GitHub text files-... and, like, wait it out. [23:19.17] Eric: Mm-hmm. [23:36.69] Eric: Yeah Yep. Yeah. [23:40.33] John: That's not practical for some people. But, but that-... but, but that, that has been a really, like, helpful thing. Where it's like hunker down and the... Because you can't spend all your time, like, constantly, like, reoptimizing everything. I mean, you could, but it's a bad idea. And, like, the, the closer you can get to files on a computer-... like, the less reoptimization you're constantly doing. Um, and that's just been a practical thing for me. [23:41.79] Eric: It's not practical. Right Hunker down. [23:55.61] Eric: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [23:59.01] Eric: Mm-hmm [24:02.51] Eric: Yep. I agree. All right. We'll see what happens. We'll catch you on the next one. [24:07.63] John: Yep.