Outshining the master is the silent career killer

[00:05.55] Eric: Look at that. [00:07.09] John: Look at that. We're back. We're in night mode. [00:10.25] Eric: We, we are back. We are in night mode, uh, because we had someone, uh, an actual photographer was-... in the office-... and couldn't stand to see our horrible fluorescent lights. So I think it's a little blue, but better than what we had before. [00:19.69] John: In- Yeah [00:23.71] John: Our fluorescent, exactly. We- We're, we're missing neon signs in the background, so. [00:29.39] Eric: We are missing neon signs. When we get famous one day. [00:32.64] John: Main shortcoming right now. [laughs] [00:34.82] Eric: Okay. The, [laughs] the main shortcoming. Yeah, I'm sure our eight subscribers really-... really care. [00:37.65] John: Anyways. [laughs] [laughs] I think we have 11. Oh, really? No, I made that up. [laughs] [00:43.24] Eric: So- [laughs] Oh, I was gonna say percentage-wise, that's a big lift. So we wanted to talk about a mental model, which, uh, mental models are near and dear to our heart. We've talked about two of them so far on the show. Only two, actually. Uh, which is surprising. Uh, but, you know-... we have to talk about AI so much, you know, they get sort of crowded out. But the one you wanted to talk about was, uh, the mental model is don't outshine the master. And actually-... it's, it's not originally a mental model. We categorize it in the mental model-... um, you know, sort of umbrella that we use for these-... concepts. But it's actually originally from a different source, which is the laws of power. [00:48.21] John: Yeah, it is. [00:59.07] John: Yes. Yeah. It is [01:07.68] John: Yep. [01:15.53] John: Yes [01:21.76] John: Right [01:25.39] John: Yes [01:32.56] John: Yeah, the For- 48 Laws of Power? Is that right? Yeah. [01:34.48] Eric: Yes. 48 Laws of Power. Um, and I think it's the very first-... one-... in the 48 laws. I believe- [01:40.39] John: Yes, that's correct Oh, is it? You might, you might be right [01:45.40] Eric: ... I believe it is. I believe it is. Uh, okay, so we wanna put a definition to it, but you said you had a good intro. [01:51.71] John: I've got an intro. Okay. So the source of wisdom in our age is definitely Reddit. I think everybody would agree that that's where you go. Yeah. Okay. Um [laughs] [01:59.62] Eric: Yes. Yes. Yes. Well- ... yeah. And if that fails, then go to X. [02:04.51] John: Y- right. All right, so this is the, like, 48 Laws of Power subreddit, right? Um, all right, so somebody post. I'm gonna try to read this and read it and talk into the microphone at the same time. "I've been outshining the master for years." [laughs] "And it has now caught up with me." [laughs] [02:09.75] Eric: Mm-hmm. [02:19.91] Eric: [laughs] Oh, no. Wow. Whoa. Okay, this is great. Continue. [02:25.24] John: [laughs] "I'm, I'm, I'm getting fewer opportunities. My boss is discrediting me when he has a chance to. I think I'm seen as a threat to him and his power." "But now I am too deep in. I just recently read the book," referring to 48 Laws of Power. Uh, [laughs] "Just recently read the book, and I'm aware now of my mistakes. Where do I go from here now that I am already a threat? Can I change my ways, or am I in too deep?" [02:36.62] Eric: Hmm. [02:53.96] Eric: [laughs] [02:55.72] John: [laughs] It's like Dear Abby. [laughs] [02:57.25] Eric: That is very Dear Abby. What... Okay, can you give me a definition of outshining the master? So this person said, "I've been outshining the master for years." What's your definition? And then I'll, I'll give my definition. Unless yours is- [03:05.93] John: Yeah. [03:10.97] John: S- I mean, mine's really simplistic. I, I think... I mean, it, it's in a work context. I mean, it's older than that. Like, it's talking about, like... I, I, I mean, I was reading about it, and there's some interesting, like, illustrations throughout history of, like, a servant outshining the king or a-... you know, whatever. But, like, in a work context, it's doing something to, like, show up your boss. Um, you... Like, whatever project or whatever you're working on and, and having it make your boss look bad because, like, you're looking, quote, like, so good. It's my best- [03:17.28] Eric: Yep. [03:26.62] Eric: Sure Sure. [03:44.96] Eric: Okay, interesting. That's more specific-... than how I think about it. The... [03:47.59] John: Yeah Yeah. [03:51.50] Eric: That's, that's way more specific. I think that is one aspect of it, but I would actually zoom the definition out even more. And this may sound a little ambiguous, so we can, we can, uh, add more detail to the picture. But I would say it's any time when you are treading in areas of authority that are-... equal to or above your boss. And, uh, without the explicit approval of your boss. [04:21.19] John: Ooh [04:24.57] John: Okay. [04:31.57] John: Yes. I like that. I like that better. Because... And here's why I like it. It is the... Like, there are things you can do with delegated authority, authority that are appropriate. Right? Like, a ki- essentially acting on behalf of your boss, let's say. There are things you can do with delegated authority that, like, you absolutely shouldn't be doing, and there's things that it is situational. Where, like, if you were had an understanding with your boss or maybe an explicit conversation and you go do something with delegated authority, like, fine. But you could do that same thing, your boss completely be uninformed, and it not be okay. [04:33.86] Eric: Okay. [04:44.06] Eric: Yep. [04:47.81] Eric: Yep, yep. [04:56.80] Eric: Yes. [05:04.39] Eric: Yep. [05:09.39] Eric: Yes. Okay, let's each try to give an example-... of that from our own-... career. [05:11.42] John: Yeah Right All right. I think, uh, for me, like, technology things. So there's been a number of times when, in a lot of this, like, it... The dynamic... Like, it really depends on the company and the d- dynamic. So I can think of two instances. One positive one, just an awesome relationship with my boss. Like, and I had a ton of, like, authority, uh, to make decisions. Um, and I made some major technological decisions, like, mostly on my own. Um, there was still some back and forth, and he wanted to be informed and stuff, but, like, he just wasn't part of it. Um, there's another situation where I acted in a very similar, like, veinAnd this was earlier in my career, so I'm like, I'm like may- I was like a lead or like maybe an IC. And then the other one I was like more of a manager director, so there's a difference. [05:20.39] Eric: Yep. [05:30.72] Eric: Mm-hmm. [05:40.89] Eric: Yep. [05:47.19] Eric: Hmm. [05:53.92] Eric: Yep. [06:07.32] Eric: Mm-hmm. [06:11.05] Eric: Mm-hmm. [06:11.97] John: Um, where like wasn't-- was making similar like technology recommendations-... and, and, and, um, like recommending like, "Oh, hey, we should like switch to this thing. It's better than what we're using," like that thing. And like got in trouble. Um... [06:15.52] Eric: Mm-hmm [06:22.47] Eric: Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah. Yeah Yeah. [06:25.84] John: So that's my best like-... thing. 'Cause I was, was like practically doing the same activities. One was positionally in a different like space between the two different companies. And that like IC or like lead versus like manager director ma- matters, and like relationally in a different place. It was like super high trust environment, like great relationship. Other like company, like not so much. [06:34.86] Eric: Mm-hmm. [06:42.82] Eric: Yep. [06:48.80] Eric: Yeah. Totally. Totally. Uh, let me think. [06:51.00] John: What about you? [06:55.32] Eric: Uh, the... Uh, here's, here's one that comes to mind. So the... I was at a company and the... my boss was the VP marketing. Okay. And we had a CRO, chief revenue officer. And- [07:12.46] John: Okay. [07:19.36] John: Yeah. That your boss like rolled up to. Okay. [07:21.08] Eric: That my boss rolled up to. And I was, I was in product marketing at the time and the chief revenue officer, you know, reached out to me to work-... on a project with him specifically. And it was a situation where, you know, I went to my... I... You know, the first thing I did was I went to m- I went to my boss-... who's the VP of marketing and I said, "Hey, you know-... this is a tricky thing because he reached out to me. I just wanna make sure-" "... you know, you're aware of this," and, you know, whatever. And i- same thing, ended up, [07:36.78] John: Mm-hmm [07:40.08] John: Right. [07:48.60] John: Mm-hmm Right [07:56.77] John: Yeah [08:03.14] Eric: you know, ended up being fine and I ended up sort of working on this project. You know-... it's just a very... Th- basically the CRO said, "I wanna pair with you and like go back and forth and like of-" "... just us-... and get this work product to a point where-" "... you know, I wanna share it with like a wider group or whatever." [08:07.40] John: Yeah [08:13.27] John: Right. Right Right Right. [08:20.92] Eric: Um, which was, which was super cool. Um, but that was going way over like several people's heads-... who normally would be involved-... in that process, right? And there were elements of, you know, we need to get this done very quickly. We, we do not want a committee that's going to slow down the process. There were just a lot of elements of let's get the work product like, you know, 90% of the way there and then share it more broadly. 'Cause I think he had a pretty specific vision. Um, but it was interesting 'cause I don't think that he had asked my boss about that, I think. You know, and it wasn't like a gigantic company, but it was big enough to where the, the hierarchy and the protocol there was established-... even if not, you know, i- implicitly if not explicitly. [08:27.32] John: Sure Right Right. [08:44.79] John: Right. [08:52.49] John: Right. [09:01.14] John: Sure. Yeah Yeah. That makes sense. So this, um, my favorite part about Reddit is like the majority of the posts I feel like I read it, I read... Nowadays it just says like, parentheses like deleted. [chuckles] Like it feels like does everybody like constantly delete and recreate their accounts? Like I don't know. Maybe. But like back to the, the question. Here's, here's what I think is interesting. So I, I think this happens like I've made... I think I've done it right, I think I've done it wrong. Like in this situation where the guy's saying like, "I think I've been outshining the master for years and it's now caught up with me." Um, like maybe, like maybe you have, but I think this is a misdiagnosable thing-... where people like overvalue their contribution and their like piece-... and like think that they're outshining the master. When in reality like that probably isn't like the whole s- 'cause that like I don't know this guy obviously but-... um, like I'm getting fewer opportunities and my boss is like discrediting me. And it's like maybe people just don't like to work with you. Maybe you're not outshining the master. Maybe like people just don't like you. Like that's possible. [09:20.88] Eric: I don't know. [09:25.30] Eric: Yep. [09:29.22] Eric: Mm-hmm. [09:45.16] Eric: Hmm [09:52.34] Eric: Hmm [09:55.43] Eric: Yes. [10:00.86] Eric: Yeah [10:07.92] Eric: Yeah. I agree. I agree. Yeah. Do you think that... So there's this interesting... Oh, our background died. [10:18.58] John: Oh, I'm hopeful it's just the background. [10:23.74] Eric: For those of you on... Uh, [10:24.88] John: [laughs] [10:27.18] Eric: we can cut this out. [10:28.62] John: Yeah. [10:31.76] Eric: There we go. [10:32.24] John: All right. Just wanna make sure we're still live here. [10:40.64] Eric: Yeah. We, we can trim that out. Do we need to like [10:40.94] John: Okay. Cool. [10:44.48] Eric: have a no sleep thing? [10:44.98] John: Let me mark it probably. Um, [10:53.08] John: yeah. This is what the caffeine thing is for. [10:57.24] Eric: Do you have caffeine? Oh, yeah. There you go. [10:57.84] John: Oh, it was the- All right. All right. My bad. Okay. All right. [11:14.04] John: Sweet. [11:21.94] Eric: I totally agree that it's misdiagnosable. Do you think that most people know when they're outshining the master? Because I think there's two flavors of this. [11:30.71] John: Mm-hmm. Okay. [11:34.38] Eric: One flavor is Machiavellian. Right? Which is you're a political... You know, you, you are largely a political creature, and so you're going to build relationships that, you know, that go above your boss's head or-... with your boss's peers-... that benefit you. Right. So there's a Machiavellian angle. You know, where I'm gonna try to get involved in a project... that's run by someone above or a peer to my boss-... you know, um, as a way to climb the ladder, et cetera. And I'm not m- I'm not... That sounds pretty negative. I don't necessarily think it's negative all the time, but I think it mostly is. I think it is mostly an extremely self-serving, um-... effort, right? But I also think it can happen... I think this can... I think it's actually more difficult when it happens without someone really knowing that they're doing it, which is common. And I've done that, I've done that myself. [11:38.20] John: Okay. [11:54.78] John: Mm Yeah, that benefit you. Yeah Yeah. Okay. Yep. [12:07.17] John: Right [12:11.01] John: Sure. [12:14.84] John: Right. [12:22.85] John: Right. [12:27.77] John: Right [12:41.07] John: Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, same. Like, I... It was just something, in, like, the case where I'd, I'd screwed this up, it was just something I had conviction about and I was like, "I just think we need to really do this," and like-... you feel like people aren't paying attention to you-... and you just, like, kinda keep pushing the issue-... of like, "This is what we need to do." [12:55.19] Eric: Yeah Yep Yeah Yep. I'll give you another really common one, especially in startup world. This is, this is incredibly common. [13:04.14] John: Sure. [13:07.51] Eric: So, a lot of times in startup world, you have a much, uh, like a, a much more f- a, a flatter hierarchy than in a lot of other companies, right? And a lot of your communication channels are digital, and they're... Especially in the earlier stages, you just get comfortable talking with people who are in positions of authority on a level that you wouldn't at a much larger company-... you know, that have-... more hierarchy baked into the organizational structure. And so, [13:33.46] John: Yes. Right Right [13:39.72] John: Right. [13:42.10] Eric: you know, when you're trying to figure out how to form a company and what your values are and how you operate, you know, according to those values, people come into the company who don't align with that necessarily, and they-... either have to figure it out or they're not a good fit for the company or whatever, which can be disruptive, and people have very strong feelings about that. And so one thing that's really common, and a mistake that I've made before, is that, um, [13:53.25] John: Right [14:06.10] Eric: you know, if someone does something that is clearly like, "This is not how we work. These aren't our company values-"... or whatever, [14:11.37] John: Yeah [14:14.00] Eric: to... And let's say that person's in a different department and you're working on a project-... or something together, right? You know, you may, like, you may be comfortable enough with that person's boss or even with someone on the executive team to say, "Hey, this person's really behaving in a way..." A- and I'm saying this, again, I think it can be very Machiavellian, but I think-... very altruistically, you can say, "Hey, I'm working on this project, and this person's just operating in a way that, uh, that does not align with our values," right? It's not customer-centric. It's like whatever, right? [14:18.00] John: Okay Yeah. [14:37.32] John: Right [14:44.00] John: Right. Right. [14:47.65] Eric: And that feels like the right thing to do-... but is actually a form of outshining the master. Because you are appealing to an authority source that is multiple steps above you-... directly. And that can be very problematic. And I think one of the... A- again, this is, like, a very subtle form of this, and maybe, maybe it's not officially outshining the master-... but, um, [14:51.03] John: Right [14:55.53] John: Okay. [15:03.10] John: Hmm Yeah. [15:09.15] John: Yeah. [15:16.53] John: Right [15:19.87] Eric: this is, this is pernicious. Like, I think that this is... And espe- especially, like, if you're in a earlier stage company, you get comfortable doing this sort of thing. [15:27.41] John: Okay. [15:28.87] Eric: What happens is that when you do that, there may not be immediate perceived impact. [15:40.58] John: Is what you're describing essentially like a skip-level complaint? [15:46.55] Eric: A skip-level... Yes, a skip-level complaint, but I, I would ex- It's more than that-... in that it is a, it is the establishment of skip-level communications or even a skip-level relationship. [15:53.01] John: Okay [16:02.55] John: Right. [16:03.60] Eric: And the challenge with that is... I think there are two major challenges with this. One is that when you do that, you immediately... Your trust, trust in you from the people who you skip, whether you report... Especially if you report directly to them. But even if you don't, right? So in this example that I gave of, like, it's someone who leads another department that I'm working for-... or whatever, right? And even if my, you know, complaint or the point that I'm making is legitimate on paper, if I go skip level, [16:23.39] John: Right. Right. [16:29.46] John: Sure, right [16:40.50] Eric: then that person's trust in me decreases, and my own boss's trust in me decreases because I have gone directly to an authority level that's above them. Right? And which means, like, okay, well, like- [16:54.12] John: Right. [16:58.20] John: And you, like, want them to do something. Or there's some kind of request of... Yeah [17:00.44] Eric: Yeah, you want them to- Even if, even if you don't necessarily. Right? Even if you don't necessarily. Because... And I, I mean, you've seen this, like, as a-... you know, you've seen this multiple times as a manager. But when someone does that, the, the calculus you have to run for yourself as a manager is, "Okay, what information do I give this person and what projects do I put them on?" Because-... whether you like it or not, part of being a manager is controlling how information is distilled as it moves up the chain. Right? So the people at the top of the pyramid, even in a very flat company, they just don't have the time to consume all of the context. They need it distilled, right? And when you distill information, it loses fidelity. And so as a manager, you need to make sure your boss gets information about what's happening underneath you in its, like, purest distilled form so that they understand this is the most important stuff. Right? And so when someone skip levels, even if it's not a complaintYou lose control of that. Right? And so now I- with- if someone does that, it's like, okay, well, I don't control that narrative anymore, which means that my boss or this person above me may be getting two different versions of information. [17:04.25] John: Okay. Sure. Right. [17:10.35] John: Right [17:26.42] John: Right [17:33.38] John: Sure. [17:40.93] John: Right. [17:56.17] John: Yeah. Right. [18:06.63] John: Sure. Sure. [18:18.28] John: Of the truth. Yeah, yeah. Okay. [18:19.82] Eric: And that is really problematic-... for you as a manager. Right? Super problematic. Um-... and, uh, you know... So anyways, I, I think that's actually very, very common. Um, and... But, but it's, it's really easy to do that without realizing that it's a form of outshining the master. [18:21.29] John: Sure Sure. [18:25.43] John: Yeah [18:32.63] John: Mm-hmm. [18:41.45] John: Right. But the flip side of it is there's this, there's actually a superpower in empowering your people to do that in the right way. [18:52.47] Eric: 100%. [18:53.02] John: 'Cause if you flip, like say you're a director or even an executive, 'cause I'm trying to think of some examples, like from previous roles or my previous role where like if you can... So previous role I had three or four directors reporting to me. If I can spin off a director to work with another, another executive on a project, I'm aligned with them. The communication is like, you know, like clearly we're on the same page. The other executive can see it, and then my director like executes really well on that thing. There's l- that's the best. [19:08.65] Eric: Mm-hmm. [19:25.71] Eric: Yes. It is the best. That's like... Oh, man. W- maybe we can look it up and put it in the show notes if we can find it. But someone, [19:29.33] John: Right. [19:35.11] John: Okay. [19:38.51] Eric: someone said... This actually may have been way back on the Data Stack show. But someone gave this hiring advice where they said, "You know, the, the best way to build a team is to hire people who can be in meetings that you can't be in and like do well in those on your behalf." And that sounds-... very, very simple, but actually it's not, because if, if someone can... If you say, "Hey, I can't make it to this meeting, but this is an important project," or whatever-... like, "Can you go there, understand what's going on?" Or, you know, whatever. That can actually be really problematic and create so much more work for you as a manager. Um- [19:42.69] John: Okay. [19:57.99] John: Yeah. I agree with that [20:09.63] John: Yeah [20:18.05] John: For sure. Where you're like, "I should've gone to that meeting. This is a nightmare." Like- Yeah. Yeah. [20:21.51] Eric: This is a nightmare. Exactly, right? And so... And that's just lateral or lower. Right? And so if that goes wrong up- if it goes wrong in the upward direction, it's really problematic. But to your point, when it goes well, it's actually the best thing. It's the best possible thing for you. Um, what about the, what about the master who's getting outshined? [20:27.09] John: Sure. Right. [20:39.67] John: Yeah. Yeah. [20:49.19] John: Oh, from the... Oh, interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, [20:51.59] Eric: Like, let's look at it from that perspective. [20:56.73] John: I think it... So I think there's two types of like masters getting outshined. The one... And the most interesting ones are the ones that are, um, when you've got it like ICs and like middle management. Or like managers and directors. 'Cause like executives getting outshined is like from like that reporting is like less of a thing, 'cause it's like outshined-... to... It can happen, but it's like outshined to who? Right? But it's way messier, like manager, director, IC, manage, like that world. Way messier. So I'm gonna assume we're talking like that. That world. Um, yeah. I think there's two ways to handle it. One [21:10.57] Eric: Mm-hmm. Yep. [21:21.99] Eric: Sure [21:25.05] Eric: Yep. [21:28.87] Eric: Totally. Totally. Yep. Yep. Agreed. [21:38.07] John: is to a- well, I think the only good way to handle it is like to address it of like-... "Hey, like I don't know what you meant by this." Talk about it. But the second component is, um, you can eq- if you can figure out how to equip that person, like I, like I just said, to like do it the right way of like, "Hey, like I actually appreciate the initiative, like, but we gotta be aligned first." "Then go do that." Which that's probably easier than pushing somebody to like be proactive. I think it's harder to push somebody to be proactive. It is easier to like rein somebody in a little bit and like get aligned-... and then like have them be proactive. And like do stuff. I've... In the past I've not... I would say early on as a manager, I didn't wanna deal with like reining people in-... 'cause like, oh, that's annoying. But I've learned that although like that's kind of annoying, it's easier-... than trying to push people-... to like be proactive and be aggressive. [21:43.07] Eric: Yes Of course. [22:03.19] Eric: Yep. Yep. [22:11.32] Eric: Yeah. [22:16.03] Eric: Agreed Agreed. Yep. [22:26.13] Eric: Mm-hmm [22:33.39] Eric: It's way easier Yep Yep. It's directing energy as opposed to trying-... to create energy. For sure. So much harder. Right. I agree. I think, when I think about managers who are [22:39.56] John: Creating Yeah. Creating energy is way harder. Mostly impossible. [laughs] [22:51.77] Eric: the best managers, where I've run into it, where you bump up against it in terms of outshining, is the ones who... Well, let me, let me actually explain it this way. An, an ideal, an ideal relationship, right? Which I've had this a couple times in my career-... and it's really, really wonderful, right? Um, is there's a manager who is like a really good manager. And they have people on their team who are really talented, and because they have a high functioning team, they get pulled into like critical projects and other things like that. And so opportunities are naturally created for that manager's reports to, you know, sort of n- you know, be pulled into things in the organization-... or find opportunities to sort of outshine the master or go skip level or whatever, right? And in the best scenario, and this is just great career advice in general, whenever those opportunities pop up, like just talk to your boss about them. Right? The very first thing you should do is talk to your boss about them, because if you have that great relationship, like your boss is going to want you to stay happy, productive, et cetera.And it's b- actually bad for your boss if they create an environment where you don't like your job and you eventually leave the company. They're gonna get a bunch of heat for that, where it's like, "This person's awesome." Like, "Why couldn't we retain them," right? And so it's actually better for them even if the long-term outcome of this is that you go report to someone else, or you get-... pulled to a different team or whatever. That is a way better outcome for your boss-... than them trying to, like, keep you in a box or whatever. [23:10.83] John: Yeah Right. [23:22.65] John: Yep. [23:43.67] John: Right [23:57.27] John: Sure. [24:15.78] John: Sure. Yeah. Right, right. [24:26.69] John: Sure [24:31.35] John: Right [24:34.63] John: Right. And especially at a larger company, like, it's a really good outcome for your boss to lose some percentage of people to other teams. 'Cause then they have advocates all over the company that loved working, like, for you. Um, and then the other component that I was thinking about as far as, like, just thinking through relationships is there's also, like, a really... And t- this is just practical. Like, obviously this isn't controllable, but the... If you, if you work for, like, a really tenured person, like, like, that's, um, just been doing it a lot longer than you-... and, like, knows they're good at it and feels secure that they're good at their job, like, that's also a thing where, where-... they just aren't gonna feel outshined. You know? Like, it just kinda doesn't matter. You can still, like, do the wrong thing, like, prob- like, do things that, like, be out of line a little bit, and they can help, like, guide you, but they're not gonna feel outshined. [24:42.73] Eric: Yeah. [25:09.49] Eric: Mm-hmm [25:17.29] Eric: Totally Yes. Yeah. [25:32.07] Eric: Yes. Okay, that was the second... Okay, so that's-... the ideal scenario. And a lot of times in that scenario, the boss has a huge level of confidence. Right? It's just, you know. A- and, and I would say another thing, they have a huge level of confidence, and they are actually very okay... And I would say, again, we're talking about sort of the middle layer here. At the executive-... level this would be problematic from a career standpoint. But even maybe there, they're okay with an outcome where it's like, wow, like, maybe the, like, I've put together such a powerful team here that we need to rethink this, and I need to go do something else or manage a different team. Or like, you know, whatever. There could not be a better compliment to you in the organization. Right? [25:35.10] John: Okay Right. [25:43.73] John: Yeah. Right. [25:56.89] John: Right. Right Sure. [26:14.22] John: Yeah. [26:18.67] John: I- I had one boss who absolutely made, like, my career in a lot of ways, whereas, like, he told me, like, early on, he's like, "I..." And he... And it was cool because, like, I, like, I could've been his kid. Like-... there was, like, a pretty good age gap. Yeah. Not quite, but, but close. But, I mean, it was the best thing. He, he told me early on, he's like, "If you, um..." Something like, "I'd be, uh, like, honored to report to you one day." Like, "I-" "Like, if I do this right, like, that would be, like, an amazing outcome." And there's not that many people that are out there that are like that. Yeah. [26:29.24] Eric: [laughs] Yeah. [26:42.08] Eric: Mm. [26:45.85] Eric: Totally, yes. Exactly. So rare. So you can't outshine that guy, but the, uh- [26:52.85] John: Well, you won't if you set up the relationship that way. [26:55.15] Eric: If you set up the relationship, you won't. But the other thing, then I think this is really important 'cause I think this is another thing that you may not, that I... Let me phrase it this way. I absolutely did not think about early in my career but that I have perceived enough times now. If you do try to outshine that guy, you may find your career at a dead end in that organization-... without really knowing why, but it's because that guy railroaded you for stepping out of line. Right? And, like, someone of that tenure, like-... they are way better at chess than you. And even if-... you're more talented than them from a skill level, you're not gonna outplay the chess game if they have that many reps. [26:57.41] John: Yeah. [27:11.59] John: Right. [27:20.13] John: Uh-huh [27:29.07] John: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Right Yeah. [laughs] Right. Right [27:41.47] John: Well, well, and our dear Reddit reader here, I think, I would guess, we don't know the situation, that, that it was a very, like, specific, like... Who knows what profession it was. Like, he is better at the thing. Like-... the task, the-... engineering, the whatever, accounting. Like, I don't know. He's better at the thing and doesn't have an appreciation for, like, it's way bigger than just, like, doing the thing. Um- [27:54.55] Eric: Mm-hmm. [27:57.71] Eric: Yes For sure [28:03.23] Eric: Yep. [28:09.65] Eric: Yes. Totally. Absolutely. Yeah. That's another... That's actually another really great thing to realize early in your career, is that you may encounter situations where your raw skill at your job is better than what your boss can do, but that's not the reason that they're the boss. Yeah, yeah. Like- [laughs] Now, okay, quick side note. [28:26.96] John: They're, they're the boss. [laughs] Exactly. Right. [28:33.27] Eric: It is astounding when you are in a situation where your boss really is, like, that good, and it's like e- when they do individual contributor work-... it's, it's phenomenal. That is super fun. Actually, that... My boss is, my boss right now is very much-... like that. And it's just... You know, I mean, he's an executive, and so he-... you know, is, has a lot of, like, managerial-... duty, but [28:43.43] John: Right Yeah. That's fun. Yeah. Right. Right Yeah. [28:54.67] John: Right Right [28:59.17] Eric: he will, like, ship work product, and everyone's like, "This guy is-... so good." You know? He's just, like, very, very good. [29:02.99] John: Yeah Yeah. And those are, those are, like... I think those are really rare. And they're the best bosses because it's like you think you're so good at, like, whatever job you are, like, whether it's coding or content. Like, whatever you're doing, and then, like, they've got so many reps that, like, 30 minutes of their time is worth, like, a day of your time. And, like, and it feels magical. It feels like there's no way they did that-... in 30 minutes. Like, it's the coolest thing [29:09.91] Eric: So rare. [29:16.32] Eric: Yeah. [29:25.37] Eric: 100%. [29:29.45] Eric: It's awesome Well-... the other thing is, the, the other thing I've learned of, like... Okay, so I think I've, I've had only two bosses who had this characteristic. My current one being one of them. [29:38.16] John: Okay. Yeah. [29:41.13] Eric: The other major thing there is the rate at which they can learn new things is absolutely mind-boggling. Right? 'Cause it's like, well, even if I don't know a lot about that, I will learn it extremely quickly and become adept at it-... like, very, very, very fast. You know? Um-... which is awesome. But what I was gonna say is, okay, the inverse of that is someone who is really worried about maintaining their manager level position. Really worried about, you know, they call it kingdom building. You know, worried about maintaining control of their reports. And in those situationsThose are people who will, who will go Machiavellian on you if you try to outshine them, and what's difficult there is that creates a career trap, right? Because- [29:48.51] John: Right. [29:54.17] John: Right Right. Right Yeah. [30:06.37] John: Yeah. Yep. [30:12.76] John: Right. [30:25.40] John: Yes. They're blocking your progress in the organization Yeah Yeah. [30:28.89] Eric: ... they are blocking your progress-... in the organization. And that is really, really difficult, and I don't... That's pretty challenging to overcome. [30:36.68] John: I think it's the number one reason that I would advise people to, to leave a company. Like, there's a lot of-... situations where you're like, "Oh, I don't know. Maybe I should leave," and I'll like... I feel like I often advise people to stay, because I think-... or switch teams. Like, just stay. But the, the number... If you have a bad manager that won't advocate for you and is gonna, like, block any of your promotions, like, you have to, like, switch teams or leave. [30:42.00] Eric: Yes. Yep [30:48.66] Eric: Or switch teams [30:59.79] Eric: Yeah. Because, because... And actually, okay, this is great, 'cause we're coming full circle. [31:05.00] John: Yep. [31:06.40] Eric: Our Reddit reader may be in a situation like that. So it could be... I mean, there are multiple flavors, right? One you brought up, which I think-... is based on the tone of the post, is probably more of a- [31:09.44] John: Yeah. Maybe. Right. Right [31:16.50] John: Well, I'm reading into it because it's Reddit, to be-... completely honest. [laughs] This has to be a person that decided-... to post this on Reddit. But yeah. [31:18.70] Eric: Yes Bias. Yeah Yes. So I, I would agree with you that it's probably an issue of I'm misinterpreting my skill level-... re- [laughs] You know? But there's another, there's another version of this where maybe that person has been blocked by their, you know, by their boss. But l- let's just assume that that's the case-... for the sake of argument, okay? [31:31.33] John: Right I'm really- [31:46.69] John: Sure Right. [31:49.35] Eric: The point that I'm making is in those situations, you will... Opportunities, if you're working hard, if you're talented, whatever, opportunities will come up to outshine the master. They just, uh-... occur naturally-... in many situations, and it's a matter of whether you... You can create them proactively, right? But if you're, again, like if you're working or talented, whatever, like-... they also present themselves naturally. And so you have a choice of whether to take advantage of those opportunities or not. And so let's assume this person was blocked by their boss. Like, it can seem like the right thing to do to s- to take advantage of those opportunities, even if you kind of do it in a respectful way. But if your boss fits the profile of someone who's blocking and kingdom building-... or whatever, or, you know, insecure or those sorts of things, it will come back. It, it is almost always a bad idea, because they will, they will try to control that. [32:01.51] John: Yeah Right, right [32:07.03] John: Right. Right Right. [32:17.64] John: Right. [32:30.42] John: Right. [32:35.48] John: Right, right, right [32:49.96] John: Right. I think there's two sides of this. If the boss fits the profile, I completely agree. But I think the other thing is it's, it's very... I think people th- think they can hide their motives when they, like, often can't. So, like, if, if your motive is, like, climbing, like ladder climbing-... it's gonna come out. [33:03.53] Eric: Mm. [33:08.72] Eric: Yeah It will come out, yes. [33:11.65] John: And, and even... And I'd even say there's some situations where, like, s- two different people can do the same thing and, like, not inform boss, inform boss, whatever, the exact same thing, and one of them everybody knows is, like, political and a ladder climber. And one of them everybody knows is genuine and just trying to, like, do a good job. And you can get two different reactions. So I think that's, that is a thing too. [33:26.50] Eric: Yeah. [33:30.22] Eric: Exactly. Yep. Yep. I totally agree. Yep. I totally agree. I totally agree. Yeah, the... It's, it is really interesting. I think the understanding of whether... Well, we, we've talked about this a little bit in a couple of episodes, but I wrote a blog post about this. [lips smack] Um, we may have done an episode on this, but I wrote a blog post about, uh, pursuing craft, not politics. And I think- Yeah, we'll put it in the show notes. But it... But there is a point at which if you get... If you're accomplished enough in your career that as a manager you can begin to pursue politics as sort of the, the end, right? Um-... not the craft of your actual job. Right? And one thing that I think I was naive about early in my career was... I mean, maybe not, maybe not, [laughs] not even just early, but maybe-... through it. But, um, is that people who do that are, are extremely shrewd and are extremely good at politics. [33:59.88] John: Yeah. We should put- We'll put it in the show notes. [34:21.67] John: Yeah. Yeah Yeah. Right. [34:38.61] John: Right [34:47.63] John: Yeah, they've invested a ton of time in it. Yeah. 'Cause you can't, you can't, you can't really do both. Like- Yeah. Like, you've either built... You've either spent tons and tons and tons of reps, like, over here developing a craft. I mean, I guess some people have maybe split between the two. I don't know. But, but it feels like you kind of focus one way or the other-... for most people [34:49.65] Eric: So much time in it. And so- You can't do both. You cannot do both, right? [35:09.13] Eric: Well-... the way that it plays out, actually, let's go back to the great bosses that we talked about. [35:14.21] John: Yeah. [35:15.73] Eric: Politics are mandatory in any organization. Literally any organization. Right? And when I say politics, it just means that, like, people make bad decisions. People are imperfect. Like, people-... are imperfect, and so a consequence of that is, you know, you just have to deal with making relationships work, making decisions, dealing with mistakes, your own-... other people's, all that sort of stuff, right? And you wanna get a project done, you have to deal with all of those components-... in order to get the project, you know, done, right? Or get the budget or whatever it is. And so if we go back to those, like, the great bosses, for them, it's like, okay, I will engage in just enough politics to, like, do great work, right? Like, it's, it is a means to a different end, and they have to do both. The, the higher you up in an organization you are, the more politics that you have to do. It's, it's mandatory, right? And so even if you take two people where you say, okay, half of your job is politics and half of your job is, like, the work or whatever- [35:18.26] John: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. [35:28.32] John: Right [35:38.15] John: Yeah Right. [35:45.44] John: Right Right. [36:02.21] John: Yeah. [36:14.59] John: Right. [36:20.82] John: Yep [36:22.19] Eric: The mindset with which you approach it, it, it just changes everything, right? Like, I'm doing this because it's just a necessary part of being, you know, part of the organization-... and I have to have a l- a level of skill here. But my focus isn't primarily on-... developing that skill. [36:32.67] John: Right Yeah. Yeah It's the same, it's the same thing we talked about early as far as, like, people... It's... I mean, I g- I suppose maybe so- sociopaths are good at this, but, like, normal people are actually not that good at hiding their motives over a long period of time. Like, it just comes out. [36:50.63] Eric: Yes. Yes. It... And if someone is good at that, I, I mean, you have to be wary. [laughs] [36:57.84] John: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, like, psychopath, sociopathy territory. Like, I, I think that's, like, part of that. You know? [37:01.82] Eric: [laughs] It's true. But I mean, but the number... But there are... But people get good at that. You know? People get good at that. Okay. So what are our... Let's land the plane. What are our-... lessons? So outshining- [37:08.15] John: Oh, I know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right What, what should we tell our, our Reddit, [laughs] our Reddit friend? [37:17.09] Eric: Yes. Okay. Let's actually... That's a great way to end it. Let's give advice to our Reddit friend. You want me to go first or do you- [37:19.94] John: Yeah. I wanna call him-... Robert, but I don't know. His name is not on there. I don't know. In my mind, he's a Robert. I- Yeah. [laughs] Deleted. Yeah. [37:26.26] Eric: His name is deleted. Do you want me to go first? Or do you wanna go first? [37:30.84] John: Yeah. Go for it. Go for it. [37:33.17] Eric: Okay, Robert. Um, so first of all, I would ask you to examine your... Like, what are, what are, what are your goals, right? And I would say if your goal is climbing the ladder, it will never make you happy. It just won't make you happy. Uh, it sounds like you're talented, and so just focus on your craft. And um, [37:43.11] John: Right. [37:48.53] John: Sure. [37:58.11] Eric: if you have a good boss and you've just intentionally been going around them, just have a conversation with them-... and say, "Hey, look, I have broken hierarchy and chain of command, and that's obviously bothered you, and that's completely inappropriate." "And so my commitment to you is that if any other opportunities come up like that or if anyone communicates with me, I'm not going to respond until, you know, until I talk with you first." Right? Like I'm just... We are going to have the conversation because I would love your advice on this. Because a- and actually w- the other thing I would say to Robert... Well, I'll just say it to Robert. Robert. One thing that you don't know, and this goes to another episode we should record on circles of competence- [38:05.09] John: Right [38:14.03] John: Mm-hmm. [38:28.80] John: Right. [38:38.82] John: Yeah. [38:45.05] John: Hmm [38:47.32] Eric: ... your boss knows more about what's going on in the organization than you do. They just do. And even if you feel very, very strongly to the contrary, it's not true. And you are absolutely... This is... We didn't even talk about this earlier in the episode, but when you go to outshine the master, you're wading in territory where your circle of competence is way smaller than your boss's. It is way smaller 'cause you're not in the meetings that they're in. You're not privy to the information they have. And so when you operate in an area where your circle of competence is smaller, it's dangerous. Like, you expose-... yourself to way more risk, right? And so- [38:51.61] John: Right. [38:56.21] John: Right. [39:10.36] John: Right. Yeah. Yeah. [39:21.82] John: Sure Right. And risk that you're not aware of. Which is not your fault that you're not aware of it. Yeah. [39:25.88] Eric: Risk that you're not aware of. Right. But your boss can actually be your biggest ally-... because they can tell you things. I'll give you a great example actually, Robert. [39:32.84] John: Right [39:39.21] Eric: Let's say there's a project that someone asks... Like, you go get involved in a project with someone who's above your boss or lateral to your boss or whatever. Okay, it's just, like, super exciting or whatever, right? [39:45.17] John: Yeah. [39:48.90] Eric: Um, on paper, everything lines up. This is great. This is a cool opportunity. You know, it's great for your career, whatever, right? But your boss may know that that department is getting their budget slashed in half-... you know-... and is going to, you know, have headcount cut-... or whatever it is, right? Completely get... You know, there's, there are all these things, right? Um, maybe they know that someone is gonna get promoted to, like, lead that department and, you know, whatever it is, right? There's some change that's going to happen, right? And so you don't know that. It's outside of your-... circle of competence. And so even just from a very practical standpoint, like, you expose yourself to a lot more risk, even risk that's sort of outside of your boss. So I would say go talk to your boss, apologize, see if you can repair the relationship, and then just start building a relationship, if they're a good boss, if you think they have-... that capacity. If they're blocking you, you either need to leave the company or move, and hopefully, you haven't done enough damage at this point that you could-... stay, you know, if you wanna stay. [39:54.01] John: Yeah. [40:03.09] John: Right Right Right [40:18.90] John: Right. Yeah. [40:24.00] John: Right [40:31.32] John: Right. [40:40.44] John: Right [40:47.73] John: Right Yeah. Yeah. All right. Two things. One on circle of competence. There's actually two levels to that. One, there is, um, what both you and I have done, if you have been in the positions and then you're in a new spot where, like, you're not privy to meetings but you've been in the positions-... you can fill in gaps that other people can't. 'Cause you can... You don't know all the details, but you can have a spectrum-... of, like, I don't know what happened in the meeting, but it was probably one of these three things. That, like, if you've never been in that meeting, like, you don't know. So that, that's a piece. Like, and-... Josh and Robert, like, seems like has probably never been in those meetings-... at another company either. The other piece, like, to, like, going to your boss, like you said, I can't think of a more rare but, like, exceptional quality than self-awareness in an employee. It is, like, one of the most-... exciting things. Like, like, it's the best, and I actually got to have a conversation with somebody that works for me-... this week, and it wasn't, it wasn't something that I felt like they did wrong, but they, like, recounted to me in a conversation, like, proved they, they were self-aware about a situation and told me about an adjustment they were going to make in a meeting that I was not in. It was amazing. It was so good. Um, yeah. But, um, yeah, so I think, again, maybe you don't have a good boss, but if you have a good boss, and you show up, you're self-aware, and you tell them how you're gonna correct your behavior, like, wow. Like, nobody does that. Yeah. [41:07.07] Eric: Mm-hmm [41:10.57] Eric: Yes. [41:14.73] Eric: Yep [41:19.32] Eric: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Yes. Yep. Yep. Yep [41:27.73] Eric: Yep Yep. [41:41.55] Eric: Hmm. Yes Yes. [41:50.61] Eric: Oh, really? [42:04.36] Eric: Wow. That's incredible. [42:19.44] Eric: Yes. Totally. I think the last thing that I'll say is-Outshine the master ultimately... I mean, it, it is really interesting, 'cause I think that my take on it is actually slightly different than sort of the raw take on-... you know, the laws of power. But [42:34.50] John: Yeah Right. [42:38.86] Eric: it ultimately boils down to trust. Right? And in, in many ways, it is as simple as if your boss can tell- give you privileged information, and you just don't tell anyone that information [laughs]... [laughs] Like-... can they trust you? You know, can I tell you things that are important that will help you without you going and telling other people, whether those people are your peers, whether they're my peers, or whether-... they're above me? But trust is just so... Unfortunately, it's actually pretty rare. Right? Um, and so not outshining the master is actually a manifestation of you building a trust relationship with your boss, right? Because-... if we have a trust relationship, I'm not going to do that. Because I want you to trust me, and so that means I'm going to, like, ask you about this, you know, before I do it or when something comes up. [42:41.06] John: Yeah, I agree. [42:55.66] John: Right Right Right. [43:09.28] John: Right [43:16.56] John: Right. [43:30.40] John: Yeah. Sure [43:35.42] John: Right. [43:42.74] John: Yeah. But ironically, like, the... If you have a trust relationship, the amount of, like, things that would be perceived as outshining the master goes down. [43:50.50] Eric: It, it diminishes it-... so much. In fact, actually, your boss may even bring those opportunities to you. Right? Where it's like, "Hey, there's this person working on this. I think, yeah, I think you should work on it." It's like-... whoa, like, that's your boss. And it's like, yeah, I know, but-... you know? [43:52.00] John: Yeah Yeah. [43:58.66] John: Right. Agreed. Yeah. [44:03.64] John: Right Right. Yeah. Right Which I said. Like, if you're the manager there, like, pro move. If you can get exposure to your great people, like to people above you, like, it's one of the best things. It's so good. [44:16.42] Eric: Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna end with a great story about this. Um, [44:19.16] John: All right. Right. [44:21.76] Eric: this is fun. I don't, I don't know if I've told you this. Okay. The, um... This is so random, but the former CFO of Atlassian, who's now a partner at Accel- [44:35.68] John: Yeah. Local. Local guy. [44:37.38] Eric: Yep. He lives in... He was in San Francisco for a long time. But, um, you know, family from Greenvale. And so he lives, like, a couple streets over. And so I see him a couple times a year at neighborhood stuff-... and trick or treating and whatever. And so last Halloween, I started talking with him. And, um, it just turns out that he had some connections to, uh, some people in San Francisco who were, like, very high up in, you know, the company and, you know, sort of the, the executive echelon-... you know, at my current company, whatever. Right? And so he told me to say hey to this person-... who's, like, very high-... in our organization, right? You know, and at that point, I'm an individual contributor-... like way down the totem pole-... on the marketing team, right? And so that's just a situation where it's like, well, it... Well, I mean, of course, in this conversation with At- Atlassian, I was like, "Yeah, I'm, sure." Right? But I'm like, "Okay, like, this is weird, like, direct outreach in a remote environment." Like, you know, how... You know, how do you handle that? [44:40.21] John: For a long time. Mm-hmm. [44:47.22] John: Right, yeah. [44:51.12] John: Mm Yeah. [44:58.24] John: Uh-huh. [45:12.52] John: Yeah Okay. [45:20.96] John: Right Yeah Yeah. Right. [45:28.82] John: Yeah Right Right. [45:38.26] John: Mm-hmm. Sure. [45:44.37] John: Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. I'm the new guy. Yeah. Sure. [45:47.64] Eric: I'm the new guy. Like, who am I? Like, you know, no one knows who I am. And-... so anyways, that's just a great example of, like-... I could have done that, and I think it would've been fine. But I just talked to my boss about it and gave him-... context and said-... "Hey, I'm not gonna reach out-... to a person of this profile-... without you knowing about it." Right? Like, it's just-... it's just not appropriate, right? [45:49.30] John: Right. It's like, it's good. Yeah Right Right. Yeah Right Right Right Right. It's, yeah Well, and I think the other problem with, with situations like this is people just, like, uh, like... You know the term, like, money burning a hole in your pocket. It's like-... hold onto that, and then, like, at the company event, at the offsite, when you, like, happen to run into this person, be like, "Hey, how's it going?" Like- Like, uh- And then just, like, use it six months from now. Like, you don't-... have to, like- Yeah. [46:17.08] Eric: Mm [46:25.56] Eric: Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah Oh, man, such a good point. Such a good point. I actually waited a really long time. 'Cause I was like, okay, I mean-... you know, because people are busy, and, you know-... how do you... It's, like, kind of a weird ask-... 'cause you need to give context or whatever. But anyway, it's just... That's a super-... small example. Right? Um- [46:34.32] John: Yeah. Yeah Sure Right Yeah. Yeah That's a perfect example. Yeah. Right. Well, you really could've gone either way. It's not that big a deal. But, like- Right. Right Especially, like, day one, you're like, "What?" [laughs] Yeah. Right. [46:47.48] Eric: Right. But it- But it goes back to trust, right? Where it's like-... my commitment is- Yeah, like- Well, and it's like, I'm not- You know, and it's... The other thing is it's, it's like, okay, this is a random connection from, like, whatever. You know? It's like-... this is-... you know. Um, but it's just o- over, over the years, I've learned, like, okay, if there's one thing I want, it's my boss to trust me, you know? And so even something-... small like that-... is a signal that's like-... hey, like, I'm not... I would... I'm not going to do things that... I'm not going to tre- uh, going back full circle, I am not going to tread in areas of authority above you-... without your explicit knowledge and approval. You know? Um- Okay, there we go. That's a wrap. [47:00.34] John: Right. It's- Yeah Yeah [47:09.88] John: Yeah. Yeah You pick one thing like that sort of thing Yeah [47:28.16] John: Right Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. Sure. Cool. That's a wrap. All right. [microphone rustling] [47:49.30] Eric: Uh-oh. [47:52.78] Eric: Is this thing connected? [47:58.08] Eric: [microphone rustling] [47:58.18] John: Uh, see if it got flipped off in the back. [microphone rustling] Did it? [48:03.46] Eric: Yeah, there's a power switch on the back. [microphone rustling] [48:06.72] John: It's just, just... 'Cause it's not rechargeable. It's just, like, old school batteries. [48:14.06] Eric: [sighs] Wow, that went way longer than I thought. [48:21.84] John: Yeah. [48:22.92] Eric: But that was a good one. [48:24.02] John: That was a good one