Sunk cost, AI deniers, and Elon talks with Jesus

Studio (00:01.691) Welcome back to... Welcome back to... That was my speakers on. No worries. We'll have to, I'm going to restart that. You can, or you can just trim the beginning too. I'll just trim it. I'll just trim it. retake two. Here, I'll mark the clip. That was my speakers on. No worries. We'll have to, I'm going to restart that. You can, or you can just trim the beginning too. I'll just trim it. I'll just trim it. retake two. Here, I'll mark the clip. Studio (00:21.019) Welcome back to the Token Intelligence Show. Today we have a short, and I brought the topic last time, which was the woes of AI chat interface. And John, today you are bringing a topic around sunk cost. And so you've done a bunch of thinking about this. I've done a very little bit of thinking about this. So let's just jump right in. Sunk cost, especially as it relates to AI. Where did this idea come from? Welcome back to the Token Intelligence Show. Today we have a short, and I brought the topic last time, which was the woes of AI chat interface. And John, today you are bringing a topic around sunk cost. And so you've done a bunch of thinking about this. I've done a very little bit of thinking about this. So let's just jump right in. Sunk cost, especially as it relates to AI. Where did this idea come from? First off, think we have to address the elephant in the room. Yes. that shorts for us might not be shorts for our listeners. Short means it's probably less than 60 minutes. than an hour. Yeah. Okay. So Sankost. So this, this has just been, it's just, there's, I think you're like this too. There's the topics that they come up and then they come up again in your mind and come up again in your mind. So that's been one of mine for the last like couple of months. Yes. First off, think we have to address the elephant in the room. Yes. that shorts for us might not be shorts for our listeners. Short means it's probably less than 60 minutes. than an hour. Yeah. Okay. So Sankost. So this, this has just been, it's just, there's, I think you're like this too. There's the topics that they come up and then they come up again in your mind and come up again in your mind. So that's been one of mine for the last like couple of months. Yes. You know it's gonna be a good one when that happens. Yeah, yeah, it is. So what I'm gonna do is I was thinking back, like when did I first even know this was a thing? High school is the answer. Really? Yeah. Isn't that funny? Okay. So I think part of this is my dad, he's kind of a theorem guy. I haven't met your dad but I already like him. Like he, like. In-person participant 1 (01:19.037) You know it's gonna be a good one when that happens. Yeah, yeah, it is. So what I'm gonna do is I was thinking back, like when did I first even know this was a thing? High school is the answer. Really? Yeah. Isn't that funny? Okay. So I think part of this is my dad, he's kind of a theorem guy. I haven't met your dad but I already like him. Like he, like. Like as a kid, like Occam's Razor came up, Sunk Kosset, you know, so it's, it's that, that's kind of a fun thing. So, okay. First came up when I'm in high school and I, ironically enough, I was pretty into AV stuff. Like, so I had, I played guitar a little bit, so I'd like to like record things with my friends, you know? and I was down a rabbit hole, a deep rabbit hole, trying to get a combination of hardware and software to work together to do the thing that I wanted to do. Like as a kid, like Occam's razor came up, sunk cost, you know, so it's, it's that, that's kind of a fun thing. So, okay. First came up when I'm in high school and I, ironically enough, I was pretty into AV stuff. Like, so I had, I played guitar a little bit, so I'd like to like record things with my friends, you know? and I was down a rabbit hole, a deep rabbit hole, trying to get a combination of hardware and software to work together to do the thing that I wanted to do. record my guitar or whatever. like hours and hours and hours down this rabbit hole. I've been there. And we've been there recently. We have been there recently on the show, is why the video, we have an upgraded camera. We have computer sands. we're, we're on the way. But so, so funny. And I was just beating my head against the wall and my dad could tell us like, this is not going to work. so we talked about sunk cost fallacy. record my guitar or whatever. like hours and hours and hours down this rabbit hole. I've been there. And we've been there recently. We have been there recently on the show, is why the video, we have an upgraded camera. We have computer sands. we're, we're on the way. But so, so funny. And I was just beating my head against the wall and my dad could tell us like, this is not going to work. so we talked about sunk cost fallacy. Studio (02:45.263) And that like essentially his advice is like, Hey, you need to try a different approach. The combination of things you're doing is not working. You need to try a different approach. I would just, I just really wanted it to work the way I wanted it to work. Totally. So that's my like mental, like image for sunk cost fallacy. It's like, if you just put your head down and keep like bearing through it, you're eventually going to find the answer. And that like essentially his advice is like, Hey, you need to try a different approach. The combination of things you're doing is not working. You need to try a different approach. I would just, I just really wanted it to work the way I wanted it to work. Totally. So that's my like mental, like image for sunk cost fallacy. It's like, if you just put your head down and keep like bearing through it, you're eventually going to find the answer. Yes. And your dad as a wise man is saying that's probably not true, but even if it was, you need to stop. Yes. Yeah. Which I actually want to start with a counterpoint here is like it's the theorem is like why it's bad, right? But I do think the character in defense of myself, the characteristic is generally good. And I was listening to this podcast the other day. Yes. And your dad as a wise man is saying that's probably not true, but even if it was, you need to stop. Yes. Yeah. Which I actually want to start with a counterpoint here is like it's the theorem is like why it's bad, right? But I do think the character in defense of myself, the characteristic is generally good. And I was listening to this podcast the other day. And it was talking about scientific discovery and how like a common belief around around scientific discovery is like, innovation change, like people, know, like are doing things differently and experimentation. All of this true. But the, the premise of what the guy was talking about was like, a lot of this was people that were just super stubborn and they wanted the world to work a certain way. And they just kept going down that path. In-person participant 1 (03:40.261) And it was talking about scientific discovery and how like a common belief around around scientific discovery is like, innovation change, like people, know, like are doing things differently and experimentation. All of this true. But the, the premise of what the guy was talking about was like, a lot of this was people that were just super stubborn and they wanted the world to work a certain way. And they just kept going down that path. Yes. And that is how the discovery happened because other people quit sooner and we're like, it doesn't work that way. Yeah. And a lot of the discoveries were these people that just, and then there's flip sides of people that were just super stubborn, wanted to work. then like their lives ruined their careers, ruined. Like it just doesn't work that way. in my defense, that's the upside. Yes. but not the point of today. So I think we've talked about this before. Have you read thinking fast and slow or you're at least familiar with the book? I haven't. Yes. And that is how the discovery happened because other people quit sooner and we're like, it doesn't work that way. Yeah. And a lot of the discoveries were these people that just, and then there's flip sides of people that were just super stubborn, wanted to work. then like their lives ruined their careers, ruined. Like it just doesn't work that way. in my defense, that's the upside. Yes. but not the point of today. So I think we've talked about this before. Have you read thinking fast and slow or you're at least familiar with the book? I haven't. Okay, but just this week I read an article about slow an article titled slow and two articles titled fast So i'm ready for this and like reference to the the book or not necessarily don't think they reference the book but Okay I mean it's a big enough thing that I think it's influenced a lot of people downstream that don't know they're influenced by sure anyways So i'm gonna Okay, but just this week I read an article about slow an article titled slow and two articles titled fast So i'm ready for this and like reference to the the book or not necessarily don't think they reference the book but Okay I mean it's a big enough thing that I think it's influenced a lot of people downstream that don't know they're influenced by sure anyways So i'm gonna Studio (05:03.117) not rehash the book at all. It's a great read. It has been a couple years for me. But the idea in the book and the way it relates to this is there's like system one and system two is the constant reference in the book is how he frames your like cognitive logical side of thinking. That's one system and the other system is your like instant reactive like not rehash the book at all. It's a great read. It has been a couple years for me. But the idea in the book and the way it relates to this is there's like system one and system two is the constant reference in the book is how he frames your like cognitive logical side of thinking. That's one system and the other system is your like instant reactive like Lizard brain is what I've heard. think that's the Seth Godin thing. So he's in a lot of the book is like how they interplay, how they work. So, cause I'm thinking like, okay, there's a piece of this sunk cost fallacy thing, which for me and my example, it's just not, it's not logical, right? Like you get way down the road and I'm just thinking through like what's happening inside of me, inside of people when they're just down this road. So, and the... Lizard brain is what I've heard. think that's the Seth Godin thing. So he's in a lot of the book is like how they interplay, how they work. cause I'm thinking like, okay, there's a piece of this sunk cost fallacy thing, which for me and my example, it's just not, it's not logical, right? Like you get way down the road and I'm just thinking through like what's happening inside of me, inside of people when they're just down this road. So, and the... And I think, I don't have anything super deep here, but it's actually kind of fundamental of like, I don't want to admit that I'm wrong, is what it comes down to for me. So. The little bit of thinking that I did on this, I think it goes deeper than that. But one thing that I do want to point out is that when you think about sunk costs in the context of, I didn't. In-person participant 1 (06:00.88) And I think, I don't have anything super deep here, but it's actually kind of fundamental of like, I don't want to admit that I'm wrong, is what it comes down to for me. So. The little bit of thinking that I did on this, I think it goes deeper than that. But one thing that I do want to point out is that when you think about sunk costs in the context of, I didn't. Think about this until you brought it up. I love the example of your dad's, you have sunk costs on the AV side, which is so great. there are, I still haven't learned my lesson today. Just so everybody's clear. It's just way more expensive. More Amazon cable, more Amazon cables. mean, yeah. On the floor, if you could see it, it like it looks like a rat's nest. Um, one thing that I think about, I think about those types of things. Think about this until you brought it up. I love the example of your dad's, you have sunk costs on the AV side, which is so great. Cause there are, I still haven't learned my lesson today. Just so everybody's clear. It's just way more expensive. More Amazon cable, more Amazon cables. mean, yeah. On the floor, if you could see it, it like it looks like a rat's nest. Um, one thing that I think about, I think about those types of things. I did similar things. would probably say I went down that road with video and photo stuff. AV, not necessarily audio recording. I did similar things. would probably say I went down that road with video and photo stuff. AV, not necessarily audio recording. Studio (07:09.766) you know, just trying to get all of this stuff to work to produce the result, right? But one thing is in high school, even though you don't necessarily think about this or feel this way, you have so much margin. Like you can just spend. Yeah, sure. 40 hours in a week in addition to all the other stuff, right? Just tinkering with AV stuff. And so the cost, because you have such an abundant supply of margin and time, it's the. you know, just trying to get all of this stuff to work to produce the result, right? But one thing is in high school, even though you don't necessarily think about this or feel this way, you have so much margin. Like you can just spend. Yeah, sure. 40 hours in a week in addition to all the other stuff, right? Just tinkering with AV stuff. And so the cost, because you have such an abundant supply of margin and time, it's the. you don't feel the cost. Unbenuked to you at the time. yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Because that is really interesting. the time? But it's true. And so that's why this, you know, as a high school student, you're like, this is reasonable. And your dad is saying, this is not reasonable. and if you did this as an adult, like there would be consequences that you don't like. For sure. For sure. Okay. Yeah. I, okay. There's a huge part of it that is, I just don't want to be wrong. you don't feel the cost. Unbenuked to you at the time. yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Because that is really interesting. the time? But it's true. And so that's why this, you know, as a high school student, you're like, this is reasonable. And your dad is saying, this is not reasonable. and if you did this as an adult, like there would be consequences that you don't like. For sure. For sure. Okay. Yeah. I, okay. There's a huge part of it that is, I just don't want to be wrong. Yes, agree with that. I agree with that. I think that's significant. So I feel like I've gotten way down this road without a functional definition. So I'd love to exchange definitions here. I mean, we roughly know what it want me to go first or do you want to go? I want you to go first because I did a lot of research into my definition and you're like in the hot take seat. So you should go first. Okay, great. In-person participant 1 (08:06.874) Yes, agree with that. I agree with that. I think that's significant. So I feel like I've gotten way down this road without a functional definition. So I'd love to exchange definitions here. I mean, we roughly know what it want me to go first or do you want to go? I want you to go first because I did a lot of research into my definition and you're like in the hot take seat. So you should go first. Okay, great. And I'm defining the sunk cost fallacy. Yep. Okay. Sunk cost fallacy. Yep. Which the definition of sunk cost is like a subset of that. Yes. Okay. Yeah. The sunk cost fallacy is this idea that because you have already invested a significant amount of resources into something that you should continue. And I'm defining the sunk cost fallacy. Yep. Okay. Sunk cost fallacy. Yep. Which the definition of sunk cost is like a subset of that. Yes. Okay. Yeah. The sunk cost fallacy is this idea that because you have already invested a significant amount of resources into something that you should continue. to invest in it would be the most concise definition, right? It is using prior investment and generally a high quantity of prior investment as justification for future investment. Yeah, yeah, I think that's great. think I've got two. I've got the fancy definition and then my own definition. I'll start with like kind of the official. A cognitive bias where people continue a behavior or endeavor. to invest in it would be the most concise definition, right? It is using prior investment and generally a high quantity of prior investment as justification for future investment. Yeah, yeah, I think that's great. think I've got two. I've got the fancy definition and then my own definition. I'll start with like kind of the official. A cognitive bias where people continue a behavior or endeavor. Studio (09:30.905) as a result of previously invested resources, time, money, effort, even if it's clearly not the best choice. My tweak on that, I mean, it's very similar. When I was just thinking through the example I just shared, it's putting too much weight in your investment in something, time, money, effort, in a way that hampers your current decision-making skills. Because that's the most like... as a result of previously invested resources, time, money, effort, even if it's clearly not the best choice. My tweak on that, I mean, it's very similar. When I was just thinking through the example I just shared, it's putting too much weight in your investment in something, time, money, effort, in a way that hampers your current decision-making skills. Because that's the most like... yes. Visceral thing for me. Wow. That is so good. That is so good. Wait, what was the first one that you... The official one is... The end part? The end of the first one, even if it's clearly not the best choice. Even if it's clearly not the best choice. But I think it's way more accurate to say it clouds... It's an impairment. It is an impairment in decision making. 100%. 100%. Okay, well I have a question for you on this because... yes. Visceral thing for me. Wow. That is so good. That is so good. Wait, what was the first one that you... The official one is... The end part? The end of the first one, even if it's clearly not the best choice. Even if it's clearly not the best choice. But I think it's way more accurate to say it clouds... It's an impairment. It is an impairment in decision making. 100%. 100%. Okay, well I have a question for you on this because... One thing that's really challenging, there are two examples that come to mind really, that just came to mind off the bat when you were talking about this, is I think about history. So one is the steam powered boat. And the other is Morse code and like the advent of sending messages with Morse code. And so very briefly, In-person participant 1 (10:30.692) One thing that's really challenging, there are two examples that come to mind really, that just came to mind off the bat when you were talking about this, is I think about history. So one is the steam powered boat. And the other is Morse code and like the advent of sending messages with Morse code. And so very briefly, both of the inventors of those were extremely stubborn in the way that you were describing. Like I see the world a certain way and I'm not going to quit until I fail or I the outcome. And in both of those cases, they happen to be unbelievably transformative inventions. I mean, decades of them toiling against this. And then there's also this both of the inventors of those were extremely stubborn in the way that you were describing. Like I see the world a certain way and I'm not going to quit until I fail or I the outcome. And in both of those cases, they happen to be unbelievably transformative inventions. I mean, decades of them toiling against this. And then there's also this other dynamics. there is their stubbornness, there is commitment over time. There is also the invention of new technologies that make their vision more possible or more practical. for Morse code, example, like running cables over long distances was the fulcrum. other dynamics. there is their stubbornness, there is commitment over time. There is also the invention of new technologies that make their vision more possible or more practical. for Morse code, example, like running cables over long distances was the fulcrum. Studio (11:51.901) that tipped the scales and sort of made it widely desirable, right? The ability to send the messages existed before, but not over long distances. And that was a cable infrastructure issue. And I don't know the specifics of your Morse code example, but a lot of times these are outside factors that the Morse code people had little influence over a lot of times, which is the crazy part with a lot of these inventions. 100%. So what's interesting is, that tipped the scales and sort of made it widely desirable, right? The ability to send the messages existed before, but not over long distances. And that was a cable infrastructure issue. And I don't know the specifics of your Morse code example, but a lot of times these are outside factors that the Morse code people had little influence over a lot of times, which is the crazy part with a lot of these inventions. 100%. So what's interesting is, So I guess my question for you is... So I guess my question for you is... Studio (12:26.492) There are an equal number, sorry, there are a much larger number of stories of people who tried to do something and were stubborn about it and it was a complete failure and didn't transform history. We don't know about most of them. We don't know about most of them, right? Yeah, definitely. There are an equal number, sorry, there are a much larger number of stories of people who tried to do something and were stubborn about it and it was a complete failure and didn't transform history. We don't know about most of them. We don't know about most of them, right? Yeah, definitely. How do you know if you, how do you, how do you listen to the voice of reason from Dr. Wessel? Speaking to his high school friend. I mean, first off, you have to have other people. mean, that's not, it seems obvious when you say it, but it's not, you know, but if you're, if your judgment's clouded by the Sunk Cost Fallacy, it's not necessarily obvious. That's so good. So other people. Yep. How do you know if you, how do you, how do you listen to the voice of reason from Dr. Wessel? Speaking to his high school friend. I mean, first off, you have to have other people. mean, that's not, it seems obvious when you say it, but it's not, you know, but if you're, if your judgment's clouded by the Sunk Cost Fallacy, it's not necessarily obvious. That's so good. So other people. Yep. that you trust. we've talked about this before. You don't have to trust them in every way on everything. You just need to trust them on the topic or the thing you're working on. You just find somebody that you trust that's, if you're working in tech on tech subjects and ask them to be honest with you. You mentioned your high school example of real sunk cost. What's another example? In-person participant 1 (13:12.87) that you trust. we've talked about this before. You don't have to trust them in every way on everything. You just need to trust them on the topic or the thing you're working on. You just find somebody that you trust that's, if you're working in tech on tech subjects and ask them to be honest with you. You mentioned your high school example of real sunk cost. What's another example? specifically professionally, like in your career, good or bad, maybe where you heard your dad's voice in the back of your head and you said, because you said this is still a problem for you, it's still a problem for me, although having a family and being- There's more constraints. There are more constraints, right? Where you don't get to make the choice about your margin. But good or bad, give us a sunk cost story. I've got a great one. specifically professionally, like in your career, good or bad, maybe where you heard your dad's voice in the back of your head and you said, because you said this is still a problem for you, it's still a problem for me, although having a family and being- There's more constraints. There are more constraints, right? Where you don't get to make the choice about your margin. But good or bad, give us a sunk cost story. I've got a great one. This is around software. I think this is my perf, of course. Of course. This is my like professional like. This is around software. I think this is my perf, of course. Of course. This is my like professional like. Studio (14:22.608) This is the thing, if you have one skill to be good at, knowing when to continue the course with a particular software and when it's time to jump ship, is a big deal. That's a huge deal. Because if you're early and too often, you're wasting a ton of money. If you're late and not often enough, you're getting behind, it's a huge deal. I would also say though, one interesting thing with software, just to interject. This is the thing, if you have one skill to be good at, knowing when to continue the course with a particular software and when it's time to jump ship, is a big deal. That's a huge deal. Because if you're early and too often, you're wasting a ton of money. If you're late and not often enough, you're getting behind, it's a huge deal. I would also say though, one interesting thing with software, just to interject. Is that similar to the amount of margin that you have in high school where you can just spend an insane amount of time just trying to get your audio recording set up fixed? Is that similar to the amount of margin that you have in high school where you can just spend an insane amount of time just trying to get your audio recording set up fixed? Compared to manufacturing, software has a similar feeling where it's so much cheaper to make mistakes than in manufacturing that it can be harder to feel sunk cost before it's too late. And then I think AI is exacerbating that in an extreme way because the cost is now plummeting even further. But anyways, continue. So now I have two. I'm actually going to share one of them that I think is really interesting. One of my first jobs. In-person participant 1 (15:04.666) Compared to manufacturing, software has a similar feeling where it's so much cheaper to make mistakes than in manufacturing that it can be harder to feel sunk cost before it's too late. And then I think AI is exacerbating that in an extreme way because the cost is now plummeting even further. But anyways, continue. So now I have two. I'm actually going to share one of them that I think is really interesting. One of my first jobs. I worked on a data warehouse for a company, like almost 15 years ago now. Microsoft was the stack. Oracle, you could do Oracle too, but like most mid-market companies use Microsoft. That's just what you do. Gone down that road, built out some stuff over the course of like a year. And just doing all the like right things kind of by the book of like, all right, we need to do this and this and this this. Gets to the point. I worked on a data warehouse for a company, like almost 15 years ago now. Microsoft was the stack. Oracle, you could do Oracle too, but like most mid-market companies use Microsoft. That's just what you do. Gone down that road, built out some stuff over the course of like a year. And just doing all the like right things kind of by the book of like, all right, we need to do this and this and this this. Gets to the point. where this is just getting overly complicated. I'm not sure it's what the business really needs. Like what should we do? And essentially decided like spent more time with the business, more time with analysts, more time. And it was like, they need like five reports. Like we're, have a good, we have a grand vision. We're going to do a data warehouse. You can do self-service. This is 15 years ago, self-service. can do all these things. where this is just getting overly complicated. I'm not sure it's what the business really needs. Like what should we do? And essentially decided like spent more time with the business, more time with analysts, more time. And it was like, they need like five reports. Like we're, have a good, we have a grand vision. We're going to do a data warehouse. You can do self-service. This is 15 years ago, self-service. can do all these things. Studio (16:33.85) And it just came down to data sets. They need like four or five data sets. That's what's needed. And they kind of already operate that way. So all the work I've put into self-service, they consume the end result and like download a data set and do something in Excel, right? So I was like, okay, some cost fallacy. Like what do do? So we pivoted and tore down a lot of the layers of this data stack. And it just came down to data sets. They need like four or five data sets. That's what's needed. And they kind of already operate that way. So all the work I've put into self-service, they consume the end result and like download a data set and do something in Excel, right? So I was like, okay, some cost fallacy. Like what do do? So we pivoted and tore down a lot of the layers of this data stack. And then essentially ended up with move, move, ironically enough, we were using Postgres in production 15 years ago. It was great. Still is great today. And we moved like, we just need a very simple like process to make these four data sets and make them really good and just use Postgres. In that example, it was so, it was just so much better, as easy to maintain the like, And then essentially ended up with move, move, ironically enough, we were using Postgres in production 15 years ago. It was great. Still is great today. And we moved like, we just need a very simple like process to make these four data sets and make them really good and just use Postgres. In that example, it was so, it was just so much better, as easy to maintain the like, the reduction, the increase in trust and like the status right went up and the reduction of maintenance and pain and stuff. when you're in that situation, it's so hard not to look at how much, how many expensive hours from engineering went into the year of trying to build the grand vision and then basically throwing a huge amount of that away. Right. And it's, it's yeah. And that's from like an investment standpoint. In-person participant 1 (17:31.355) the reduction, the increase in trust and like the status right went up and the reduction of maintenance and pain and stuff. But when you're in that situation, it's so hard not to look at how much, how many expensive hours from engineering went into the year of trying to build the grand vision and then basically throwing a huge amount of that away. Right, and it's, yeah, and that's from like an investment standpoint. this was a very visceral, like this was a year of my life. This was like 40, 50, however many hours a week, every week. And I'm throwing this away, like this is awful. But yeah, so I think that's a positive example of that. Okay, I actually wanna dig into that because the one thing that I thought about is directly related to how you described that you felt like it was visceral because it was a year in my life. this was a very visceral, like this was a year of my life. This was like 40, 50, however many hours a week, every week. And I'm throwing this away, like this is awful. But yeah, so I think that's a positive example of that. Okay, I actually wanna dig into that because the one thing that I thought about is directly related to how you described that you felt like it was visceral because it was a year in my life. One of the, so one of the, I saw this play out in a company and they had a product that was successful in its own right and so the founder of the company was on a pursuit to figure out what the next product would be to sort of create an additional revenue line. And the problem they chose to solve then was very highly personal to them because in previous lives they had One of the, so one of the, I saw this play out in a company and they had a product that was successful in its own right and so the founder of the company was on a pursuit to figure out what the next product would be to sort of create an additional revenue line. And the problem they chose to solve then was very highly personal to them because in previous lives they had Studio (18:58.618) sort of done a bunch of work around this and hadn't actually seen their vision come to fruition in another company. And they also had a very close personal friend in the company who they made the leader of this particular project and sort of innovation skunkworks and all this sort of stuff. sort of done a bunch of work around this and hadn't actually seen their vision come to fruition in another company. And they also had a very close personal friend in the company who they made the leader of this particular project and sort of innovation skunkworks and all this sort of stuff. It was, there were, you know, this happens very commonly, but there were a number of mistakes made along the way, and in a very short amount of time, the project accrued a monumental amount of technical debt and user experience debt, and just, you know, it was very, very problematic, right? And mean, one of the core things in software engineering is, you know, don't do a full rewrite. It was, there were, you know, this happens very commonly, but there were a number of mistakes made along the way, and in a very short amount of time, the project accrued a monumental amount of technical debt and user experience debt, and just, you know, it was very, very problematic, right? And mean, one of the core things in software engineering is, you know, don't do a full rewrite. Yeah, like just don't do that. But this, this objectively from multiple, very, very qualified people was like, this needs a full rewrite, you know, you know, sort of from the bottom up. But what struck me about you saying it was very visceral. And when I think about that situation at the company where that played out and actually became a huge burden for the company because they chose not to rewrite it was that the technical debt was one thing, but the bigger thing was. In-person participant 1 (19:48.143) Yeah, like just don't do that. But this, this objectively from multiple, very, very qualified people was like, this needs a full rewrite, you know, you know, sort of from the bottom up. But what struck me about you saying it was very visceral. And when I think about that situation at the company where that played out and actually became a huge burden for the company because they chose not to rewrite it was that the technical debt was one thing, but the bigger thing was. I think identity. Okay. Identity on what level? Like the company's identity? This project is tied to my identity, right? The founder, the other person working on the project, right? And it was like, you know, it's easy to say, okay, I can look at this from an objective standpoint on paper and put, you know, just do the math and say, you know, okay, you know, it's probably time for a rewrite. I think identity. Okay. Identity on what level? Like the company's identity? This project is tied to my identity, right? The founder, the other person working on the project. And it was like, you know, it's easy to say, okay, I can look at this from an objective standpoint on paper and put, you know, just do the math and say, you know, okay, you know, it's probably time for a rewrite. However, the sunk cost fallacy, I think goes deeper even than the definitions that we gave earlier in that there's economics, but I think the identity and ego is many times an even bigger factor where it's like, I'm going to keep going because this is tied into my identity and I will like lose part of myself because of this. And I think that making those decisions, However, the sunk cost fallacy, I think goes deeper even than the definitions that we gave earlier in that there's economics, but I think the identity and ego is many times an even bigger factor where it's like, I'm going to keep going because this is tied into my identity and I will like lose part of myself because of this. And I think that making those decisions, Studio (21:17.464) is way harder. And I actually thought of, there's a story. There's a story that came to mind around this that was, that I thought about this morning actually, when I was thinking, when we were, you know, we had talked yesterday about what we're going to talk about. Okay. So there's a story in the Bible. And so, you know, for those listeners who aren't familiar with the Bible, so Jesus is, you know, is way harder. And I actually thought of, there's a story. There's a story that came to mind around this that was, that I thought about this morning actually, when I was thinking, when we were, you know, we had talked yesterday about what we're going to talk about. Okay. So there's a story in the Bible. And so, you know, for those listeners who aren't familiar with the Bible, so Jesus is, you know, walking around earth, doing miracles, other things like that. And he starts to build this following of a lot of people who are looking for deeper meaning, right? And so they're trying to find their identity, right? And in this particular story, there's a very wealthy person who comes up to Jesus and he says, you know, I want eternal life basically, right? He's looking for deeper meaning. And so interestingly, Jesus says, well, you need to like do these things, right? So, you know, basically like, walking around earth, doing miracles, other things like that. And he starts to build this following of a lot of people who are looking for deeper meaning, right? And so they're trying to find their identity, right? And in this particular story, there's a very wealthy person who comes up to Jesus and he says, you know, I want eternal life basically, right? He's looking for deeper meaning. And so interestingly, Jesus says, well, you need to like do these things, right? So, you know, basically like, be a moral person, Yes. Honor your father and mother, tithe, whatever. There's a list that he runs through. And he says, well, I've done all those things. I've checked the list since I was a young man. And the response is, great. Now you need to go sell everything you have and give it to the poor. And so the reason that struck me was like, In-person participant 1 (22:15.386) be a moral person, Yes. Honor your father and mother, tithe, whatever. There's a list that he runs through. And he says, well, I've done all those things. I've checked the list since I was a young man. And the response is, great. Now you need to go sell everything you have and give it to the poor. And so the reason that struck me was like, the identity, that is really like an identity thing where the person's like, I'm looking for deeper meaning and when you try to strip that away from me, it's not worth the cost to me because it's so tied into my identity. And I think so many sunk cost projects are actually that, on a deeper level, right? Yeah, because I think I started this with a like, the identity, that is really like an identity thing where the person's like, I'm looking for deeper meaning and when you try to strip that away from me, it's not worth the cost to me because it's so tied into my identity. And I think so many sunk cost projects are actually that, on a deeper level, right? Yeah, because I think I started this with a like, Well, admitting you're wrong, but I think you're taking it a layer deeper, which I agree with where it's not, I mean, it's part of it. Really admitting you're wrong, right? To change directions, but, it can be an often as deeper, deeper than that. I was thinking about actually when I, when that story came to mind, I thought about Elon Musk. Okay. And you mentioned this about Elon Musk talking about his biography. Yeah. Uh-huh. Walter Isaacson. Well, admitting you're wrong, but I think you're taking it a layer deeper, which I agree with where it's not, I mean, it's part of it. Really admitting you're wrong, right? To change directions, but, it can be an often as deeper, deeper than that. I was thinking about actually when I, when that story came to mind, I thought about Elon Musk. Okay. And you mentioned this about Elon Musk talking about his biography. Yeah. Uh-huh. Walter Isaacson. Studio (23:43.557) Yeah, Walter Isaacson, which I haven't read yet, but you've read, I talked with someone else about it. But both of you independently said the same thing, where he's willing to just like, like put all of his chips in on something. Every again and again and again and again again. Right. Which is so interesting. That's the antithesis of the sunk cost fallacy where it's like, I'm willing to throw everything away and risk it on this new thing. Yeah. Which, which is funny because Yeah, Walter Isaacson, which I haven't read yet, but you've read, I talked with someone else about it. But both of you independently said the same thing, where he's willing to just like, like put all of his chips in on something. Every again and again and again and again again. Right. Which is so interesting. That's the antithesis of the sunk cost fallacy where it's like, I'm willing to throw everything away and risk it on this new thing. Yeah. Which, which is funny because I do, I do, do. He seems to be unique, pretty unique in that where it appears that most other billionaires have a side pot. They've got several hundred million that is in a yacht or in a this or in a third or fourth, you know, but it appears, and I don't know the situation well enough. Maybe he has that too, but it appears at least publicly that, that, he's like, I'm going to take every dime I own and like, yeah. I do, I do, do. He seems to be unique, pretty unique in that where it appears that most other billionaires have a side pot. They've got several hundred million that is in a yacht or in a this or in a third or fourth, you know, but it appears, and I don't know the situation well enough. Maybe he has that too, but it appears at least publicly that, that, he's like, I'm going to take every dime I own and like, yeah. just roll that into these different businesses. Yeah, yeah. But this is way more philosophical than St. Coss, but I think that that is a form of freedom. Right? Because if you go back to that story from the Bible, one of, I mean, there are many points, and I'm not like a theologian or anything. But if you just listen to that and compare it to Elon Musk, which is a great thing, by the way. Yeah. 1,000 year old literature related to Elon Musk. Right, right. In-person participant 1 (24:42.042) just roll that into these different businesses. Yeah, yeah. And this is way more philosophical than St. Coss, but I think that that is a form of freedom. Right? Because if you go back to that story from the Bible, one of, I mean, there are many points, and I'm not like a theologian or anything. But if you just listen to that and compare it to Elon Musk, which is a great thing, by the way. Yeah. 1,000 year old literature related to Elon Musk. Right, right. And it's like, the point is money is not going to make you happy. Right? Cause if it wasn't, then you wouldn't go to this religious leader and look for deeper meaning in your life. Right. But like the guy ends up saying, I can't do that. Like, and walking away from it. But Elon Musk is the antithesis. Like he's willing to say like, well, let's go all in on this actually. Let's double down. Yeah. Yeah. So you can imagine modern day scenario. Elon Musk walks up to Jesus and says, And it's like, the point is money is not going to make you happy. Right? Cause if it wasn't, then you wouldn't go to this religious leader and look for deeper meaning in your life. Right. But like the guy ends up saying, I can't do that. Like, and walking away from it. But Elon Musk is the antithesis. Like he's willing to say like, well, let's go all in on this actually. Let's double down. Yeah. Yeah. So you can imagine modern day scenario. Elon Musk walks up to Jesus and says, You ready for this? I'm so ready for this. This is amazing. You know, this is only one thing you lack. Sell all your businesses and like you can have eternal life. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, but but I think it's getting at like clearly like I haven't read the biography, but I think that must clearly the businesses are pretty core to his identity. Yeah, they are. They are. Yeah, man. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, get him. Let's just have him on the show and ask him what he would say. Yeah, perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Although You ready for this? I'm so ready for this. This is amazing. You know, this is only one thing you lack. Sell all your businesses and like you can have eternal life. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, but but I think it's getting at like clearly like I haven't read the biography, but I think that must clearly the businesses are pretty core to his identity. Yeah, they are. They are. Yeah, man. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, let's get him. Let's just have him on the show and ask him. Yeah. What he would say. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Although Studio (26:07.804) And we all have those things. I'm not picking on. Oh, no, for sure. For sure. No, 100 % we all have those things. All of us. OK, let's talk about this with AI, though, because there's a lot of sunk cost fallacy in AI. a LinkedIn post that I shared with you. Oh, yes, yes, yes. This is juicy. I did blur out the names, but I want to share it so people can see it on the screen here. And we all have those things. I'm not picking on. Oh, no, no, For sure. For sure. No, 100 % we all have those things. All of us. OK, let's talk about this with AI, though, because there's a lot of sunk cost fallacy in AI. I a LinkedIn post that I shared with you. Oh, yes, yes, yes. This is juicy. I did blur out the names, but I want to share it so people can see it on the screen here. And I, yeah. Yeah, this is a visceral thing for a lot of people right now. All right. You see this? Yep. All right. So the poster, for those of you that are just listening, someone posts on LinkedIn. Everyone, and they're saying, everyone who is hyping coding tools as AGI, artificial general intelligence, is a terrible programmer. If you're good, you're getting a 10 % to 20 % boost. This is a visceral thing for a lot of people right now. All right. You see this? Yep. All right. So the poster, for those of you that are just listening, someone posts on LinkedIn. Everyone, and they're saying, everyone who is hyping coding tools as AGI, artificial general intelligence, is a terrible programmer. If you're good, you're getting a 10 % to 20 % boost. which is huge, don't get me wrong, but not earth shattering. The exciting thing is that the tools are getting better every month. And then the people thrilled with Cloud Code today just write worse garbage than the LLMs do. And this is from the CEO of a company, a tech company. So top comment down there at the bottom. This is so good. Proudly proclaiming that you are unable to command good results with Cloud Code isn't a flex. In-person participant 1 (27:07.504) which is huge, don't get me wrong, but not earth shattering. The exciting thing is that the tools are getting better every month. And then the people thrilled with Cloud Code today just write worse garbage than the LLMs do. And this is from the CEO of a company, a tech company. So top comment down there at the bottom. This is so good. Proudly proclaiming that you are unable to command good results with Cloud Code isn't a flex. It exposes a lack of understanding around how the model's tools actually work. Thousands of organizations are all in on the new reality and are seeing gains way beyond 20 to 30%. Okay. Number one, I just absolutely love the hot take. But number two, dig into what you see as the sunk cost fallacy there because I think your take is very accurate for a lot of people. It exposes a lack of understanding around how the model's tools actually work. Thousands of organizations are all in on the new reality and are seeing gains way beyond 20 to 30%. Okay. Number one, I just absolutely love the hot take. But number two, dig into what you see as the sunk cost fallacy there because I think your take is very accurate for a lot of people. So there's two components. I actually had an initial reaction to this that we talked about a little bit and then a little bit different reaction. I'll start with the initial one. The initial one is there's just obvious divide in the way it relates to sunk cost fallacy. If you're mid-career or later, you've spent years and years, and you're a developer, engineer, refining a skill, learning probably multiple programming languages. So there's two components. I actually had an initial reaction to this that we talked about a little bit and then a little bit different reaction. I'll start with the initial one. The initial one is there's just obvious divide in the way it relates to sunk cost fallacy. If you're mid-career or later, you've spent years and years, and you're a developer, engineer, refining a skill, learning probably multiple programming languages. Studio (28:35.318) learning how to code, know, et cetera. And let's just say hypothetically that AI was better at this than you are. Hypothetically. That would be a hard thing from a sunk cost fallacy, right? Okay. So here, so that was kind of my original take. Then I had an interesting conversation yesterday. It was just with a non-technical person, somebody in the tech world, but not like not a learning how to code, know, et cetera. And let's just say hypothetically that AI was better at this than you are. Hypothetically. That would be a hard thing from a sunk cost fallacy, right? Okay. So here, so that was kind of my original take. Then I had an interesting conversation yesterday. It was just with a non-technical person, somebody in the tech world, but not like not a not a career engineer, but they've kind of gotten into some coding stuff recently. And we were just talking about LLMs, know, chat, GBT, Claude, like what are they good at? And this is a little bit stolen from Ben Stencil. Does this blog have a name? I think it's just self-named. don't know. it's just Ben's sub-stack. So Ben's sub-stack, we'll link it in the show notes. not a career engineer, but they've kind of gotten into some coding stuff recently. And we were just talking about LLMs, know, chat, GPT, Cloud, like what are they good at? And this is a little bit stolen from Ben Stencil. Does this blog have a name? I think it's just self-named. think it's just Ben's sub-stack. So Ben's sub-stack, we'll link it in the show notes. Like one of the things, and he some great takes, one of his things is like, ChaiGBT, LLMs are good at reading fast and then telling you what they read roughly. So, but we were talking about this. We were talking about with code, how the, I think I can say this for at least 99 % of people, my reading speed in my native language is faster than my reading speed of code, especially somebody else's code. In-person participant 1 (29:30.478) Like one of the things, and he some great takes, one of his things is like, ChaiGBT, LLMs are good at reading fast and then telling you what they read roughly. So, but we were talking about this. We were talking about with code, how the, I think I can say this for at least 99 % of people, my reading speed in my native language is faster than my reading speed of code, especially somebody else's code. My writing speed in my native language is faster than my writing speed of code. Right? So, LLMs, not, like there's not really a speed differential in them reading a language versus code or writing a language versus code. So one of the reasons people are so excited about the coding aspect of this is because of that. So the reading thing's cool of like, wow, like it ingested all these pages and summarized things and whatever. But the coding thing I think is even more hype. My writing speed in my native language is faster than my writing speed of code. Yep. Right? So, LLMs, not, like there's not really a speed differential in them reading a language versus code or writing a language versus code. So one of the reasons people are so excited about the coding aspect of this is because of that. So the reading thing's cool, of like, wow, like it ingested all these pages and summarized things and whatever, but the coding thing I think is even more hype. because as a human, I can read faster than I can read code and like the reading writing differential. Does that make sense? okay. So that's kind of the context here, but the deeper thing and me reacting to that post is actually, I'm going to trace it back to home building. So the, and I don't, you're more of a historian than I am, but there's a period of time. because as a human, I can read faster than I can read code and like the reading writing differential. Does that make sense? okay. So that's kind of the context here, but the deeper thing in me reacting to that post is actually I'm to trace it back to home building. the, and I don't, you're more of a historian than I am, but there's a period of time. Studio (30:59.076) when we transitioned from craftsman expert home builders to this more track home. I don't know, what year would, what era is that? I I think it's probably been going on for- 40s, 1950s, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Somewhere around there. Okay. Let's just say. Yeah. So that's what I'm thinking about. So in that era, pretend like I'm a home builder and I'm like, just... when we transitioned from craftsman expert home builders to this more track home. I don't know, what year would, what era is that? I I think it's probably been going on for- 40s, 1950s, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Somewhere around there. Okay. Let's just say. Yeah. So that's what I'm thinking about. So in that era, pretend like I'm a home builder and I'm like, just- hate that this is going on because I'm a craftsman and I'm good and I'm looking at these new track homes and like the quality is terrible. The aesthetics aren't as good. The fill in the blank. And that's what I feel like where we're at with the coding stuff or we're rapidly. Yeah. Because you can't see the identity of the architect in the work. Yes. And here's kind of here's a thought on it. I that this is going on because I'm a craftsman and I'm good and I'm looking at these new track homes and like the quality is terrible. The aesthetics aren't as good. The fill in the blank, right? And that's what I feel like where we're at with the coding stuff or we're rapidly. Because you can't see the identity of the architect in the work. Yes. And here's kind of here's a thought on it. So people, really proud of their craft, which is great. You want people like that in your company. You want people like that working. You want to work with people like that. So they can write clean, readable, clever, efficient code. And they're seeing it being replaced by worse, uglier, just utilitarian code, which reminds me of the transition between the craftsman, home builder. a great analogy. It's such a good one. To the modern day. Studio (31:53.905) So people that are really proud of their craft, which is great. You want people like that in your company. You want people like that working. You want to work with people like that. So they can write clean, readable, clever, efficient code. And they're seeing it being replaced by worse, uglier, just utilitarian code, which reminds me of the transition between the craftsman, home That's a great analogy. Such a good one. To the modern day. in the problem here, say things stay the same and essentially, or maybe we're not quite there in some edge cases to get even to the utilitarian part. But let's say that like we're rapidly approaching that. You're going to have from a business standpoint, utilitarian, ugly, sloppy, inefficient code that accomplishes the purpose. And you're going to have the majority of people go with that just like they are moving into track homes, they're moving into prefab things, or even just moving into some in the problem here, say things stay the same and essentially, or maybe we're not quite there in some edge cases to get even to the utilitarian part, but let's say that we're rapidly approaching that. You're gonna have, from a business standpoint, utilitarian, ugly, sloppy, inefficient code that accomplishes the purpose, and you're gonna have the majority of people go with that just like they are moving into track homes, they're moving into prefab things, or even just moving into some blend of the two. there's gonna be, and there'll probably still be some kind of craftsman applications, but the market is gonna shift. I think it's pretty clear the market is gonna shift. There's no question. Where like today, like a custom home build is just much more expensive than going the other direction. And people are gonna take a utilitarian approach to it. Yep, I totally agree with that. And I think that blend of the two. there's gonna be, and there'll probably still be some kind of craftsman applications, but the market is gonna shift. I think it's pretty clear the market is gonna shift. There's no question. Where like today, like a custom home build is just much more expensive than going the other direction. And people are gonna take a utilitarian approach to it. Yep, I totally agree with that. And I think that Studio (33:21.34) I agree with you, there's still people you see on Hacker News, people sort of lament like, well, I actually enjoy writing code, it makes me a better thinker. It's like, well, that's great. People are still going to do that. the whole, doing that because you like it is like writing in a journal that doesn't have practical utility for other people, it's primarily for you, right? Commercial software, the point is the product that solves a problem for people, right? I agree with you, there's still people you see on Hacker News, people sort of lament like, well I actually enjoy writing code, it makes me a better thinker. It's like, well that's great, people are still going to do that. But the whole like... Doing that because you like it is like writing in a journal that doesn't have practical utility for other people. It's primarily for you, right? Commercial software, the point is the product that solves the problem for people, right? And so it's okay that it becomes very utilitarian, right? I think the other aspect is the... I think... Right. It's okay that it becomes very utilitarian, right? I think the other aspect is the, think we can oversimplify all the factors here, right? So that's one factor. Another factor is humans don't like writing tests. Computers don't care, right? And so it, know, because there's so much slop we can oversimplify all the factors here, right? So that's one factor. Another factor is humans don't like writing tests. Computers don't care, right? And so it, you because there's so much slop that has been produced in the early stages of LLMs in this new epoch that we're in, it's really easy to say like, this is non-deterministic, there's a bunch of slop here. Studio (34:21.296) that has been produced in the early stages of LLMs in this new epoch that we're in, it's really easy to say, this is non-deterministic because there's a bunch of slop here. What's actually going to happen is software quality is going to increase dramatically because agents are going to be able to write and monitor tests all the time. It will follow the process. You won't have the human factor in there. And so it's likely that quality will actually increase. What's actually going to happen is software quality is going to increase dramatically because agents are going to be able to write and monitor tests all the time. It will follow the process. You won't have the human factor in there. And so it's likely that quality will actually increase. Yeah, quality across the board. And I think that to extend the analogy further, I think one of the problems today is where compare is Um, yeah, quality across the board. And, I think that to extend the like analogy further, I think one of the problems today is we're compare as, as developers on the engineering side are comparing like one, like this result with my result, mine's clearly better. And I don't think that's the right comparison, which is what the fight was over in that LinkedIn post. The right comparison is far more utilitarian and far more like, because developers on the engineering side are comparing like one, like this result with my result, mine's clearly better. And I don't think that's the right comparison. Which is what the fight was over in that LinkedIn post. The right comparison is far more utilitarian and far more like, because with a modern computer, I can write, and I've seen that both of us have done consulting, I'm still doing consulting. You see the craziest stuff. Just like. with a modern computer, I can write and I've seen that both of both of us have done consulting. I'm still doing consulting. You see the craziest stuff, crazy, just like crazy stuff, poorly written and in the backbone and not even at just small companies. have a friend that worked at a publicly traded really large company and one of the core systems they had was a more than decade old, extremely fragile like this, like you'd record, like this is something you use every day. In-person participant 1 (35:30.15) Crazy stuff, poorly written. And the backbone, and not even at just small companies, like I have a friend that worked at a publicly traded really large company. And one of the core systems they had was a more than decade old, extremely fragile, like this, like you'd record, like this is something you use every day, every week, let's say. Like a very fragile MySQL server with a ton of like, every week, let's say, like a very fragile MySQL server with a ton of tooling built up around it to just keep it going to support millions and millions of daily users. So we still do this today with humans. But the point was with the craftsmanship thing, we just compare the A and B as an engineer at the coding level. We're not comparing A and B at the final delivery level. And unfortunately, tooling built up around it to just keep it going to support millions and millions of daily users. So we still do this today with humans. But the point was with the craftsmanship thing, we just compare the A and B as an engineer at the coding level. We're not comparing A and B at the final delivery level. And unfortunately, very little of this comparison is going to matter at the delivery level. very little of this comparison is gonna matter at the delivery level. Totally. I got lunch with a friend of mine who's, he's a designer and he's been a consultant for I think a decade or so. brand design has done work for all sorts of really serious companies like Google, et cetera, right? So very successful. And he was talking about I got lunch with a friend of mine who's a designer and he's been a consultant for I think a decade or so. And brand design has done work for all sorts of really serious companies like Google, et cetera. So very successful. And he was talking about how the environment is changing rapidly. the design world. Studio (36:47.74) how the environment is changing rapidly, right? In the design world. In the design world, right? And so even things like pricing expectations, there are just some fundamental shifts happening and it is uncertain where things will shake out, right? People are trying to understand how to value different types of design work and it's pretty wild. And in fact, one thing he said was, he said on the side I had a business that was just sort of like, in the design world, right? And so even things like pricing expectations, there are just some fundamental shifts happening and it is uncertain where things will shake out. People are trying to understand how to value different types of design work and it's pretty wild. In fact, one thing he said was, he said on the side, I had a business that was just sort of like, you know, quick turn, super high quality logos, you know? And he's like, I would sort of that, you know, just as, you know, like to make extra money or like whatever. And he's like, that business is gone. Like it doesn't exist anymore. And he's like, that was a reliable source of like, Hey, I, know, I'll do a couple of these around between projects or whatever. And he's like, it's literally just gone. And it was so, it was, this was so refreshing. He just said, yeah, I mean, I'm having to, I'm going through the process of figuring out what it looks like to thrive. quick turn, super high quality logos. And he's like, I would sort of do that just to make extra money or whatever. And he's like, that business is gone. It doesn't exist anymore. And he's like, that was a reliable source of like, hey, I'll do a couple of these around between projects or whatever. And he's like, it's literally just gone. And this was so refreshing. He just said, yeah, I I'm going through the process of figuring out what it looks like to thrive. in a completely new environment. And that was really refreshing because if we think about all the things we were talking about, the craftsman with the house, the rich person who comes up to Jesus and asks him for deeper meaning, these are all things where it's like, well, I spent decades building this thing, my wealth, my career, my skill set, all these things. And I even think about this with companies that have been around that are going to get obliterated by AI. Studio (37:46.808) in a completely new environment. And that was really refreshing because if we think about all the things we were talking about, the craftsman with the house, the rich person who comes up to Jesus and asks him for deeper meaning, these are all things where it's like, well, I spent decades building this thing, my wealth, my career, my skill set, all these things. And I even think about this with companies that have been around that are going to get obliterated by AI. And it's like, well, these people have spent years building that. It's been like very meaningful. And that is, you know, that's really challenging, you know, like this, I guess maybe this is a better way to say it. It's so easy to armchair quarterback and say, you know, the sunk cost fallacy, you know, like get beyond that and, you know, give everything up and accept like this new reality that we're in. And that's actually very difficult, you know, when you're in that seat. And it's like, well, these people have spent years building that. It's been like very meaningful. And that is, you know, that's really challenging, you know, like this, I guess maybe this is a better way to say it. It's so easy to armchair quarterback and say, you know, the sunk cost fallacy, you know, like get beyond that and, know, give everything up and accept like this new reality that we're in. And that's actually very difficult, you know, when you're in that seat. For sure. Awesome. All right. Do you want the final word? Did we do our short? We did our short. I think we're actually, this is going to be our shortest episode, which is saying something. Give me the final word. Oh, you are asking. Yeah. I thought you had a final word prepared. Yeah. I can give a final word. I can make, I invented a screenless. Hey, I just heard up. Yeah. So there. for sure. Awesome. All right. Do you want the final word? Did we do our short? We did our short. I think we're actually, this is going to be our shortest episode, which is saying something. Give me the final word. Yeah. you were asking me. I thought you had a final word prepared. Yeah, I can give a final word. I can make, I invented a screenless, hey, I start up. Yeah. So there, Studio (39:16.156) There's a post I read a while back and will link to it in the show notes because I cannot remember the person's name. But they got into professional poker and they described this experience along the way where they were... was a, there's a post I read a while back, and we'll link to it in the show notes because I can't remember, I cannot remember the person's name. But they got into professional poker, and they described this experience along the way where they were. an early talent in the poker space. And they were playing at a very high level. And they just made some really rookie mistakes and got, they felt personally humiliated by people who were really good. They were trying to earn these people's respect and it was just like, I just felt like an idiot in front of person. My inability was laid bare before this master. an early talent in the poker space. And they were playing at a very high level. And they just made some really rookie mistakes and got, they felt personally humiliated by people who were really good. They were trying to earn these people's respect and it was just like, I just felt like an idiot in front of person. My inability was laid bare before this master. And the point of the post though was they said, realized that just embracing that is a moat. It's a personal moat. Like where I can go in and say, I might get completely humiliated and I might have to relearn everything I knew about this. But going in with that mindset of I can just let everything go is a form of freedom. Studio (40:08.47) And the point of the post though was they said, realized that just embracing that is a moat. It's a personal moat. Like where I can go in and say, I might get completely humiliated and I might have to relearn everything I knew about this. But going in with that mindset of I can just let everything go is a form of freedom. Right? And so, I think about Elon Musk, I think about all of those things that we talked about. so, I actually thought about this after I got lunch with the designer who I talked about. I probably need to lean way more into that mindset of I may have to think about how to reinvent my career and skill set. I think that's already happened to some extent in the day to day. But I think that is, I think, Right? And so, I think about Elon Musk, I think about all of those things that we talked about. so, I actually thought about this after I got lunch with the designer who I talked about. I probably need to lean way more into that mindset of I may have to think about how to reinvent my career and skill set. I think that's already happened to some extent in just in the day to day. But I think that is... I think that's the way to overcome the sunk cost fallacy is to say, okay, there's freedom in starting over. It's really hard, but that is going to be a huge moat in the coming years, I believe. Awesome. All right. Couldn't have said it better. All right. There we go. We will catch you on the next episode of Token Intelligence. That's the way to overcome the sunk cost fallacy is to say, okay, there's freedom in starting over. It's really hard, but that is going to be a huge moat in the coming years, I believe. Awesome. All right. Couldn't have said it better. All right. There we go. We will catch you on the next episode of Token Intelligence.