Text message bankruptcy, OpenClaw, and 20 years of email data

00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:18,520 [ERIC] Welcome back to the Token Intelligent Show, where you get to follow along as John and I try to navigate this new world of AI that we live and work in. And today we're going to talk about text message bankruptcy. 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:19,820 [JOHN] Specifically, Eric's text message- [chuckles] 00:00:19,820 --> 00:00:21,110 [ERIC] Specifically- 00:00:21,110 --> 00:00:21,380 [JOHN] -bankruptcy 00:00:21,380 --> 00:00:24,710 [ERIC] ... my own personal Chapter Eleven filing- 00:00:24,710 --> 00:00:24,740 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:00:24,740 --> 00:00:25,480 [ERIC] -of text message. [chuckles] 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,460 [JOHN] All the details will be covered. 00:00:28,460 --> 00:00:39,360 [ERIC] So I'll give you the backstory here. Uh, I was working on a project with a friend. We're at a coffee shop. We both have our, you know, our laptops- 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:39,490 [JOHN] Yes 00:00:39,490 --> 00:00:57,960 [ERIC] -set up at the bar there, so, you know, we're side by side. And he was showing me something, and I said, "Oh, actually, let me show you this other thing that I was working on or an example." And so I'm command-tabbing, you know, through my apps, uh, on my laptop, and I had recently upgraded to Tahoe. 00:00:57,960 --> 00:00:58,460 [JOHN] Okay. 00:00:58,460 --> 00:01:00,540 [ERIC] Uh, which separate discussion on- 00:01:00,540 --> 00:01:02,180 [JOHN] [chuckles] Your upgrade experience 00:01:02,180 --> 00:01:17,340 [ERIC] ... on, on the trajectory of macOS on the desktop. But, uh, uh, for some reason, my setting around notifications and the text message badge that shows up on the- 00:01:17,340 --> 00:01:17,350 [JOHN] Yes 00:01:17,350 --> 00:01:20,620 [ERIC] -messages app was reset because I'm a no-badge guy. 00:01:20,620 --> 00:01:21,760 [JOHN] You're a no-badge guy, so- 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:22,350 [ERIC] No-badge guy- 00:01:22,350 --> 00:01:22,700 [JOHN] So like e- 00:01:22,700 --> 00:01:23,420 [ERIC] on email, Slack- 00:01:23,420 --> 00:01:24,180 [JOHN] Email 00:01:24,180 --> 00:01:25,400 [ERIC] ... anything. Nothing. No badges. 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,560 [JOHN] I'm a calendar invite badge guy, but nothing else. 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:29,960 [ERIC] Okay. Okay, interesting. 00:01:29,960 --> 00:01:30,440 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:34,060 [ERIC] That actually, that makes sense. I can- 00:01:34,060 --> 00:01:34,660 [JOHN] You can get behind that? 00:01:34,660 --> 00:01:35,400 [ERIC] I can get behind that. 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:35,420 [JOHN] All right. 00:01:35,420 --> 00:01:47,400 [ERIC] Yeah, yeah. So that had-- that was reset, and so my friend saw my text message unread count or my unread count on messages. 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:47,740 [JOHN] Yes. 00:01:47,740 --> 00:01:54,120 [ERIC] Okay. Do you want to guess how many... What, what do you think the count was? Just give me a wild guess, John. 00:01:54,120 --> 00:02:04,240 [JOHN] Great question. I also want to guess at your friend's reaction, [chuckles] to be honest, but I'll, I'll guess at the count. The count, okay, reasonable count. I'm gonna go from my own personal experience. 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:05,080 [ERIC] Okay. 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:11,970 [JOHN] A lot for me, and we're just talking snapshot in time, nothing weird happened, you didn't join, like, a new group chat that, like, all of a sudden blew up. 00:02:11,970 --> 00:02:12,100 [ERIC] Sure. 00:02:12,100 --> 00:02:12,549 [JOHN] Just normal day. 00:02:12,549 --> 00:02:14,040 [ERIC] You're not planning a family vacation. 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:21,359 [JOHN] [chuckles] Okay, right. Okay, normal day, high, like, really high for me would be, like, twenty-two? 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,260 [ERIC] Okay. Yeah, so- 00:02:24,260 --> 00:02:24,269 [JOHN] [laughing] 00:02:24,269 --> 00:02:27,600 [ERIC] ... let's go, let's go two hundred and forty-seven. 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,450 [JOHN] Two hundred and forty-seven. [chuckles] 00:02:30,450 --> 00:02:39,340 [ERIC] And my friend's reaction was very similar to the reaction that you just had, which was: "Whoa, how do you have two hundred and forty-seven 00:02:39,340 --> 00:02:40,600 [ERIC] unread messages?" 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:40,710 [JOHN] Right. 00:02:40,710 --> 00:02:41,700 [ERIC] "That's crazy." 00:02:41,700 --> 00:02:41,980 [JOHN] Right. 00:02:41,980 --> 00:02:45,780 [ERIC] In part because he knows me, and he knows that I'm an inbox zero guy, which- 00:02:45,780 --> 00:02:46,000 [JOHN] Right 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:47,200 [ERIC] ... we'll talk about- 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:47,670 [JOHN] With email. 00:02:47,670 --> 00:02:47,700 [ERIC] With email- 00:02:47,700 --> 00:02:47,800 [JOHN] Yeah 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:55,440 [ERIC] ... yes, which we'll talk about. We'll talk about inbox zero. So of course, because of who I am, 00:02:55,440 --> 00:03:04,150 [ERIC] I had a very visceral experience, you know, realizing that, uh, as an inbox zero guy, I had gotten to a place where- 00:03:04,150 --> 00:03:04,590 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:03:04,590 --> 00:03:06,850 [ERIC] -seeing two hundred and forty-seven unreads- 00:03:06,850 --> 00:03:06,850 [JOHN] Right 00:03:06,850 --> 00:03:11,000 [ERIC] ... just fly by my view as I was command-tabbing through- 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:11,160 [JOHN] Right 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:12,440 [ERIC] ... didn't even register for me. 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:13,500 [JOHN] Just a normal day for you. [chuckles] 00:03:13,500 --> 00:03:17,800 [ERIC] Just a normal day. For you, it's twenty-two. For me, it's two hundred and forty-seven. 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:23,220 [JOHN] What, what do you, what do you think that accumulate-- Like, what kind of timetable are we talking that, that it got up to that? 00:03:23,220 --> 00:03:24,500 [ERIC] I think a long time. 00:03:24,500 --> 00:03:24,630 [JOHN] Okay. 00:03:24,630 --> 00:03:26,180 [ERIC] 'Cause I spent some time reflecting on this. 00:03:26,180 --> 00:03:26,560 [JOHN] Okay. All right. 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:35,080 [ERIC] I spent some time reflecting on this. But okay, this was really interesting to me because when we started talking about this- 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:36,080 [JOHN] Yes 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,840 [ERIC] ... you brought up- 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:39,010 [JOHN] [chuckles] Right 00:03:39,010 --> 00:03:45,640 [ERIC] ... a really fascinating use case around AI running locally on people's computers- 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:46,300 [JOHN] Yeah 00:03:46,300 --> 00:03:50,580 [ERIC] ... that I am going to blatantly use as a justification- 00:03:50,580 --> 00:03:51,280 [JOHN] For your behavior 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:52,730 [ERIC] ... for my bankruptcy. [chuckles] 00:03:52,730 --> 00:03:59,100 [JOHN] [chuckles] Okay, so this has been the last, last two weeks here, the first part of January in 2026. 00:03:59,100 --> 00:03:59,780 [ERIC] Yep. 00:03:59,780 --> 00:04:02,140 [JOHN] Where Claude Bot- 00:04:02,140 --> 00:04:02,260 [ERIC] Yep 00:04:02,260 --> 00:04:05,380 [JOHN] ... C-L-A-W-D bot- 00:04:05,380 --> 00:04:05,760 [ERIC] Yep. 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:05,799 [JOHN] Has blown up. 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,880 [ERIC] Not to be confused with Anthropic's Claude- 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:10,460 [JOHN] Claude tool or- 00:04:10,460 --> 00:04:10,820 [ERIC] Model 00:04:10,820 --> 00:04:11,320 [JOHN] ... AI. 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:11,620 [ERIC] Yes. 00:04:11,620 --> 00:04:16,980 [JOHN] Now, since this has blown up, Anthropic has written them a letter to say- 00:04:16,980 --> 00:04:17,010 [ERIC] [chuckles] 00:04:17,010 --> 00:04:22,940 [JOHN] ... "Hey, please stop using, using it." So I don't, I don't know. There, there is a whole thing about it. 00:04:22,940 --> 00:04:23,760 [ERIC] Right. 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,500 [JOHN] It's, it's now called Molt, or- 00:04:27,500 --> 00:04:27,890 [ERIC] [exhales] 00:04:27,890 --> 00:04:33,150 [JOHN] ... I don't know. Yeah, we, we- yeah. I don't know about the naming, but I think it, I think it's Molt, but they might- 00:04:33,150 --> 00:04:34,580 [ERIC] Well, Claude with C-L-A-W, 'cause it's their- 00:04:34,580 --> 00:04:36,680 [JOHN] Yeah, they spelled it like a lobster. 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:37,840 [ERIC] Like a lobster claw. 00:04:37,840 --> 00:04:44,080 [JOHN] Yeah, right. Um, but I think they're rebranding to Molt because lobsters molt when they grow. 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:44,480 [ERIC] Wow. 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,920 [JOHN] I don't know. Probably- [chuckles] Yeah. Anyways- 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,600 [ERIC] Did they just use AI to say, "Hey, we need to rebrand?" 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:54,300 [JOHN] I think they specifically- 00:04:54,300 --> 00:04:55,530 [ERIC] What are some lobster adjacent... [chuckles] 00:04:55,530 --> 00:05:04,200 [JOHN] ... said, "Hey, Anthropic just sent me this scary email. This is my current name. [chuckles] Give me, give me five lobster adjacent terms to rename my company." 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,580 [ERIC] It actually makes me feel very good about Lobe. 00:05:06,580 --> 00:05:07,940 [JOHN] Yeah, I think you're crushing it. 00:05:07,940 --> 00:05:08,210 [ERIC] Yeah. 00:05:08,210 --> 00:05:10,240 [JOHN] And update about Lobe coming soon- 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:10,440 [ERIC] Yes 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:10,730 [JOHN] ... to, to everyone. 00:05:10,730 --> 00:05:12,840 [ERIC] Lobe update coming soon. But what... Okay, what is Claude Bot? 00:05:12,840 --> 00:05:13,599 [JOHN] Okay, what is it actually doing? 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:14,020 [ERIC] And then- 00:05:14,020 --> 00:05:14,520 [JOHN] Yeah 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:16,360 [ERIC] ... tell me how it relates to text messages. 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:25,580 [JOHN] Yes. Okay, so in short, Claude Bot is something you can install on your computer, and people are going out and to the store and buying Mac Minis- 00:05:25,580 --> 00:05:25,750 [ERIC] Yep 00:05:25,750 --> 00:05:36,160 [JOHN] ... which is essentially the cheapest Mac you can buy. They're installing the software, AI software, open source, and giving it access to everything on their computer. 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,380 [ERIC] So it is, it's a LLM- 00:05:38,380 --> 00:05:38,660 [JOHN] Right 00:05:38,660 --> 00:05:39,560 [ERIC] ... It interfaces- 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:39,900 [JOHN] On your computer 00:05:39,900 --> 00:05:43,940 [ERIC] ... it interfaces with any of the con- you can pick. 00:05:43,940 --> 00:05:44,360 [JOHN] Okay. 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,960 [ERIC] Open, OpenAI's LLM, Claude, whatever, Gemini. 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:48,240 [JOHN] Yep. 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:55,240 [ERIC] You can pick your flavor, but you install the thing, you connect it to Gemini, Claude, whatever you wanna use. 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:56,039 [JOHN] Yep. 00:05:56,040 --> 00:06:00,040 [ERIC] And then you give it a bunch of access [chuckles] to, like, all of your files. 00:06:00,464 --> 00:06:10,854 [JOHN] ... your text messages if it's a Mac, your iMessage, your Slack. People are giving access to their 1Password accounts, to credit card numbers, [laughing] like, to wild stuff. 00:06:10,854 --> 00:06:12,534 [ERIC] [laughing] Wait. 00:06:12,534 --> 00:06:25,883 [JOHN] What could go wrong? I, I mean, we're seeing stories of-- and some of this, like, has gotta be exaggerated, but we're seeing stories coming out where, like: "I set this whole up, and I gave it this objective to make money on, um," what's that? Polymarket. 00:06:25,883 --> 00:06:26,144 [ERIC] Oh, yeah. 00:06:26,144 --> 00:06:26,744 [JOHN] Do you know that? 00:06:26,744 --> 00:06:26,833 [ERIC] Yeah, yeah. 00:06:26,833 --> 00:06:45,453 [JOHN] That's a- it's a site where you can bid on events that are happening. Um, is to make money on Po- [chuckles] Polymarket, so it just, like, runs in the background, reads, like, uh, X feeds, makes bids on Polymarket. You get- you give it, like, a three hundred dollar budget, and it, like, attempts to make money, for example. 00:06:45,453 --> 00:06:45,513 [ERIC] [chuckles] 00:06:45,513 --> 00:07:03,323 [JOHN] So there's some wild, there's some wild things where... But, but to your text message, I think the most common use case is: give this thing access to my email and my text, have it read things, [chuckles] have it ask me, like, if I need to do something or ignore it or try to respond for me. 00:07:03,323 --> 00:07:03,703 [ERIC] [laughing] 00:07:03,703 --> 00:07:07,044 [JOHN] And I think that's the most interesting thing, um- 00:07:07,044 --> 00:07:08,794 [ERIC] This makes me feel so justified- 00:07:08,794 --> 00:07:08,794 [JOHN] Yeah 00:07:08,794 --> 00:07:13,183 [ERIC] ... because people are going out and buying a Mac Mini for several hundred dollars- 00:07:13,183 --> 00:07:13,644 [JOHN] Right 00:07:13,644 --> 00:07:16,703 [ERIC] ... installing an open-source tool that's connected to an LLM- 00:07:16,703 --> 00:07:16,953 [JOHN] Right 00:07:16,953 --> 00:07:19,364 [ERIC] ... that has root access to their file system- 00:07:19,364 --> 00:07:19,933 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:07:19,933 --> 00:07:22,873 [ERIC] - in order to deal with email [chuckles] and text. 00:07:22,873 --> 00:07:24,024 [JOHN] And text, yeah. 00:07:24,024 --> 00:07:24,034 [ERIC] Texts. [chuckles] 00:07:24,034 --> 00:07:33,774 [JOHN] Well, 'cause the reason the Mac Mini matters in this equation is, if you want texts and you want to interact with your texts, it has to be a Mac. 00:07:33,774 --> 00:07:33,784 [ERIC] Right. 00:07:33,784 --> 00:07:35,373 [JOHN] That's part of the whole reason that people are buying them. 00:07:35,373 --> 00:07:36,953 [ERIC] Yeah, because of the way it works on the file system. 00:07:36,953 --> 00:07:37,443 [JOHN] Correct. 00:07:37,443 --> 00:07:38,823 [ERIC] Yes. 00:07:38,823 --> 00:07:41,763 [JOHN] So it's directly related to the text part, honestly. 00:07:41,764 --> 00:07:42,414 [ERIC] Totally. 00:07:42,414 --> 00:07:42,463 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:07:42,463 --> 00:07:47,433 [ERIC] Oh, yeah. So I am not the only one who's text message bankrupt. 00:07:47,433 --> 00:07:48,703 [JOHN] I don't, I don't think you are. 00:07:48,703 --> 00:07:50,404 [ERIC] Okay. Wow! 00:07:50,404 --> 00:07:52,402 [JOHN] I think there's a business opportunity here- 00:07:52,404 --> 00:07:52,554 [ERIC] [chuckles] 00:07:52,554 --> 00:07:55,703 [JOHN] ... to buy some server space and buy a bunch of Mac Minis- 00:07:55,703 --> 00:07:55,974 [ERIC] [chuckles] 00:07:55,974 --> 00:08:01,683 [JOHN] - and set these up for people. What could go wrong? [chuckles] No security or privacy concerns. Just, you know- 00:08:01,683 --> 00:08:05,583 [ERIC] And it's just a layer in front of iMessage that's actually just- [chuckles] 00:08:05,583 --> 00:08:05,764 [JOHN] Yeah 00:08:05,764 --> 00:08:06,813 [ERIC] ... running on the root- 00:08:06,813 --> 00:08:07,484 [JOHN] Just a fleet of Mac Minis 00:08:07,484 --> 00:08:08,994 [ERIC] ... on the root files. [chuckles] 00:08:08,994 --> 00:08:09,003 [JOHN] Right. 00:08:09,003 --> 00:08:11,724 [ERIC] And you just have people log in with their iCloud- 00:08:11,724 --> 00:08:13,443 [JOHN] Yeah. Uh-huh. [chuckles] Yeah. 00:08:13,443 --> 00:08:14,234 [ERIC] Their Apple ID- 00:08:14,234 --> 00:08:14,234 [JOHN] Yeah 00:08:14,234 --> 00:08:14,722 [ERIC] ... these days. 00:08:14,724 --> 00:08:15,364 [JOHN] Apple would never- 00:08:15,364 --> 00:08:16,484 [ERIC] Wow, that, that dated me. 00:08:16,484 --> 00:08:17,604 [JOHN] Yeah. Yeah, there you go. 00:08:17,604 --> 00:08:17,883 [ERIC] iCloud. 00:08:17,884 --> 00:08:18,364 [JOHN] Apple ID. 00:08:18,364 --> 00:08:19,003 [ERIC] Um- 00:08:19,003 --> 00:08:22,284 [JOHN] Apple would never, um, never frown upon [chuckles] such a thing. 00:08:22,284 --> 00:08:23,972 [ERIC] Oh, my gosh! 00:08:23,972 --> 00:08:24,003 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:08:24,003 --> 00:08:24,833 [ERIC] Okay, so I- 00:08:24,833 --> 00:08:24,833 [JOHN] Right 00:08:24,833 --> 00:08:25,873 [ERIC] ... feel justified. 00:08:25,873 --> 00:08:25,873 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:08:25,873 --> 00:08:30,183 [ERIC] That makes me feel better exposing my Chapter 11 text message bankruptcy- 00:08:30,183 --> 00:08:30,193 [JOHN] Right 00:08:30,193 --> 00:08:31,083 [ERIC] ... on the air. 00:08:31,083 --> 00:08:31,484 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:08:31,484 --> 00:08:33,703 [ERIC] Uh, you know, to our entire audience. 00:08:33,703 --> 00:08:34,104 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:08:34,104 --> 00:08:57,104 [ERIC] Um, but I-- so I will say, as I was thinking about this, I happened to run across an article on Hacker News, [lips smack] um, that was really, really interesting, that addressed this sort of concept of change in communication channels. 00:08:57,104 --> 00:08:58,534 [JOHN] Okay. 00:08:58,534 --> 00:09:15,864 [ERIC] Right? And this is gonna relate back to Inbox Zero, which we'll talk about in a second. But I wanted to read a couple of, um... I wanted to read a couple of quotes from this article. So then the title of the article is: How We Lost Communication to Entertainment. Okay? 00:09:15,864 --> 00:09:16,644 [JOHN] I'm ready. 00:09:16,644 --> 00:09:25,343 [ERIC] And this relates to the Claude Bot thing, right? Because if you, if you step back and just think about what you said, like, "I'm buying a Mac Mini 00:09:25,343 --> 00:09:27,284 [ERIC] so that this 00:09:27,343 --> 00:09:32,764 [ERIC] [chuckles] tool can give LLMs direct access to the file system that runs my messages." [chuckles] 00:09:32,764 --> 00:09:43,964 [JOHN] Well, and it's hard to exaggerate what people are trying to do with this, as far as, like, the, like, think and act like me, run all the time, read all my messages, pretend like you're me and do stuff. 00:09:43,964 --> 00:09:44,443 [ERIC] Totally. 00:09:44,444 --> 00:09:46,824 [JOHN] And, and, and as you can imagine, wild stuff happens. 00:09:46,824 --> 00:09:47,154 [ERIC] Yeah. 00:09:47,154 --> 00:09:47,164 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:09:47,164 --> 00:09:47,704 [ERIC] Oh, yeah. 00:09:47,704 --> 00:09:48,524 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:09:48,524 --> 00:10:33,843 [ERIC] So this is really interesting. Uh, the author of this article, which we'll put in the show notes, uh, How We Lost Communication to Entertainment. [clears throat] Two quotes here. The first one: "All our communication channels are morphed into content distribution networks. We are more and more entertained, but less and less connected." And then he goes on to say, quote: "But for most people, their email inbox is simply one more feed full of bad advertising. They have four or five digit unread count- they have a four or five digit unread count. They scroll through their inbox like they do their social media feeds." Pretty interesting. Would you agree with-- Would you agree with that? 00:10:33,844 --> 00:10:46,463 [JOHN] [lips smack] On the email side, sure. Not on the text message side for me, but this is, like, definitely happening. 00:10:46,464 --> 00:10:46,624 [ERIC] Yep. 00:10:46,624 --> 00:10:50,944 [JOHN] Like, where text messaging is a big channel for a lot of brands, growth for marketing- 00:10:50,944 --> 00:10:51,233 [ERIC] Yep 00:10:51,233 --> 00:11:02,723 [JOHN] ... advertising, that's definitely happening. In entertainment, for sure is happening of... I mean, I was lamenting to you the amount of productivity tools around, like, iMessage- 00:11:02,723 --> 00:11:02,774 [ERIC] Yep 00:11:02,774 --> 00:11:07,624 [JOHN] ... compared to the amount of entertainment tools, of, like, emojis and, and embedding links- 00:11:07,684 --> 00:11:08,114 [ERIC] Totally 00:11:08,114 --> 00:11:10,694 [JOHN] ... with, like, pretty clickable things, and then the sharing videos- 00:11:10,694 --> 00:11:10,804 [ERIC] Right 00:11:10,804 --> 00:11:16,314 [JOHN] ... and photos. They've invested way more money in that than in the, like, productivity piece. 00:11:16,314 --> 00:11:17,164 [ERIC] A hundred percent. 00:11:17,164 --> 00:11:17,284 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:11:17,284 --> 00:11:23,403 [ERIC] Right? Like, can I create a reminder which is part of the Apple ecosystem- 00:11:23,404 --> 00:11:24,184 [JOHN] Right 00:11:24,184 --> 00:11:30,522 [ERIC] ... from a text message, which is, mmm, has, has to be one of the most ubiquitous use cases of- 00:11:30,524 --> 00:11:30,704 [JOHN] Right 00:11:30,704 --> 00:11:35,274 [ERIC] ... "Hey, could you do this?" Or, "Hey, could you look... You know, check this out- 00:11:35,274 --> 00:11:35,274 [JOHN] Right 00:11:35,274 --> 00:11:45,263 [ERIC] ... I sent you a link," et cetera. You can't easily create a re- an, an Apple Reminders reminder from a mess- 00:11:45,263 --> 00:11:45,524 [JOHN] Apple 00:11:45,524 --> 00:11:48,364 [ERIC] ... from an Apple Message- [chuckles] iMessage. 00:11:48,364 --> 00:11:51,164 [JOHN] Yeah. You can archive texts. Like, there's like- 00:11:51,164 --> 00:11:52,284 [ERIC] You have to delete them. 00:11:52,284 --> 00:11:53,263 [JOHN] Nothing. Yeah. 00:11:53,263 --> 00:12:02,464 [ERIC] And only recently have you been able to do any sort of marking as unread, and then you can now filter unreads- 00:12:02,464 --> 00:12:02,473 [JOHN] Mm 00:12:02,473 --> 00:12:03,144 [ERIC] ... as well. 00:12:03,144 --> 00:12:03,704 [JOHN] Right. 00:12:03,704 --> 00:12:12,120 [ERIC] Um, but the form factor is horrible. I mean, it is the worst-... set of tools for managing a large- 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:12,270 [JOHN] Right 00:12:12,270 --> 00:12:14,200 [ERIC] -amount of communications. 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:20,550 [JOHN] So which makes me think that's got to be intentional, right? And the, the question is why? 00:12:20,550 --> 00:12:27,120 [ERIC] That is a great question. Uh, one of the things that I thought about as I was thinking through my bankruptcy- 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:27,780 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:12:27,780 --> 00:12:31,220 [ERIC] -was that, um, I'm re- I'm in the process of reorganizing. 00:12:31,220 --> 00:12:31,320 [JOHN] [chuckles] Right. 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:32,179 [ERIC] Chapter Eleven- 00:12:32,180 --> 00:12:32,650 [JOHN] Yeah, right 00:12:32,650 --> 00:12:36,250 [ERIC] -is an intention to re-- to actually reorganize [chuckles]- 00:12:36,250 --> 00:12:36,250 [JOHN] Right 00:12:36,250 --> 00:12:39,360 [ERIC] -and pay off the debt. But 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:49,860 [ERIC] the, [lips smack] the, the medium is designed for 00:12:49,860 --> 00:12:52,780 [ERIC] largely synchronous communication, or it- 00:12:52,780 --> 00:12:53,060 [JOHN] Right 00:12:53,060 --> 00:13:00,260 [ERIC] ... it sort of rewards synchronous communication. So, and one example of this is the three dots- 00:13:00,260 --> 00:13:00,820 [JOHN] Right 00:13:00,820 --> 00:13:05,960 [ERIC] ... that, you know, have an animation that indicates that someone is responding. 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:13,599 [JOHN] Right. Well, and a lot of the marketing stuff is drops, where, like, you're trying to get people to activate quickly- 00:13:13,599 --> 00:13:13,740 [ERIC] Yes 00:13:13,740 --> 00:13:17,720 [JOHN] ... on some kind of, like, flash sale or whatever. So that's- 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:17,730 [ERIC] Yep. 00:13:17,730 --> 00:13:19,270 [JOHN] Yeah, totally. 00:13:19,270 --> 00:13:27,400 [ERIC] Yep. And I think that's reflected. I mean, it would be interesting to see if there were studies on patterns and behavior around communication. 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:27,780 [JOHN] Right. 00:13:27,780 --> 00:13:30,760 [ERIC] But it tends to happen in synchronous bursts, right? 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:31,180 [JOHN] Yes. 00:13:31,180 --> 00:13:33,220 [ERIC] There aren't many 00:13:33,220 --> 00:13:38,680 [ERIC] conversations I have over text message that are long-running, asynchronous conversations- 00:13:38,680 --> 00:13:38,700 [JOHN] Hmm 00:13:38,700 --> 00:13:40,000 [ERIC] ... that are longer form. 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:40,160 [JOHN] Mm-hmm. 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:42,040 [ERIC] I mean, do you have those? 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:43,360 [JOHN] No. 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:43,860 [ERIC] Right, and- 00:13:43,860 --> 00:13:47,400 [JOHN] Because they get lost. I mean, that's a practical back to the organization thing. 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:48,000 [ERIC] Exactly. 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,540 [JOHN] If you were trying to do that, how do you, how do you even do it? 00:13:51,540 --> 00:14:00,460 [ERIC] Exactly. Exactly, and, I mean, at least email, even though, you know, email, to, to the point of the article, you know, is sort of a feed of bad advertising- 00:14:00,460 --> 00:14:00,470 [JOHN] Mm-hmm 00:14:00,470 --> 00:14:03,480 [ERIC] ... and you scroll through like, you know, like your social media feeds. 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:03,880 [JOHN] Right. 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,960 [ERIC] But at least email has some affordances for building a process around- 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:09,440 [JOHN] Yes 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,480 [ERIC] ... I want to respond to this later, so I'm going to file it, tag it, snooze it- 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:13,700 [JOHN] Yeah 00:14:13,700 --> 00:14:16,470 [ERIC] ... you know, whatever the mechanism is in your email provider- 00:14:16,470 --> 00:14:16,510 [JOHN] Yeah 00:14:16,510 --> 00:14:16,940 [ERIC] ... of choice. 00:14:16,940 --> 00:14:19,020 [JOHN] You should be able to snooze text, text messages as well. 00:14:19,020 --> 00:14:21,420 [ERIC] You should be able to snooze text, text messages, for sure. 00:14:21,420 --> 00:14:22,220 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:14:22,220 --> 00:14:23,760 [ERIC] Um, 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,650 [ERIC] so of course, I'm, I'm justifying. [chuckles] 00:14:27,650 --> 00:14:28,920 [JOHN] [chuckles] You're doing great. 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:30,540 [ERIC] Thank you. Thank you. 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:31,409 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:14:31,409 --> 00:14:33,120 [ERIC] You're my bankruptcy counselor- 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:33,880 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:35,400 [ERIC] -in this episode. 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:35,660 [JOHN] Oh, God. 00:14:35,660 --> 00:14:43,280 [ERIC] Uh, but I think that has a lot to do with it. You remember Marshall McLuhan, who coined the phrase, "The medium is the message?" 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:44,640 [JOHN] Yes. 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:55,480 [ERIC] And I thought a lot about that as I was processing through my friend's response and, you know, why I had ended up in, you know, in, [chuckles] in bankruptcy. 00:14:55,480 --> 00:15:02,760 [JOHN] This is really interesting on the medium is the message. Did... You would have had a T9 phone at some point, right? 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:03,140 [ERIC] Yes. 00:15:03,140 --> 00:15:06,820 [JOHN] Where you texted, like, via the crazy- 00:15:06,820 --> 00:15:06,849 [ERIC] Yep 00:15:06,849 --> 00:15:08,300 [JOHN] ... you know, it's T9, is that the right? 00:15:08,300 --> 00:15:09,330 [ERIC] T9 Word. 00:15:09,330 --> 00:15:10,940 [JOHN] Yeah, Word. Okay. 00:15:10,940 --> 00:15:11,680 [ERIC] I think. 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:11,800 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:12,240 [ERIC] Yeah, T9 Word. 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,260 [JOHN] No, yeah, yeah. That's right. 00:15:15,260 --> 00:15:21,340 [JOHN] It's part of-- the, the thing about that's like a, the maybe the original text message medium- 00:15:21,340 --> 00:15:21,580 [ERIC] Yes 00:15:21,580 --> 00:15:26,320 [JOHN] ... is T9. Then you move to BlackBerry- 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:26,629 [ERIC] Mm-hmm 00:15:26,629 --> 00:15:27,620 [JOHN] ... clicky keyboard. 00:15:27,620 --> 00:15:28,180 [ERIC] Yep. 00:15:28,180 --> 00:15:30,040 [JOHN] Then iPhone style- 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:30,240 [ERIC] Yep 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:31,000 [JOHN] ... keyboard. 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:31,240 [ERIC] Yep. 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:40,360 [JOHN] So we don't have good data on the SMS piece, but I know... But I bet, because you're, you're, I'm jumping ahead a bit, but you're gonna share some data on, on the email piece. 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:41,000 [ERIC] Yep. 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:45,680 [JOHN] But I wonder if there's, like, gonna be a similar... If you could get to the data, if there'd be a similar- 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:46,170 [ERIC] If you could get to the data 00:15:46,170 --> 00:15:48,530 [JOHN] ... trend as the medium, like, changes, you know? 00:15:48,530 --> 00:15:49,360 [ERIC] Oh, that's really interesting. 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:49,510 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:15:49,510 --> 00:15:52,000 [ERIC] That's really interesting. Yeah. 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:58,800 [JOHN] 'Cause how do you be text-- the point is, how do you be text message bankrupt if you're using [chuckles] T9 Word? [chuckles] Right? 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:08,260 [ERIC] Well, actually... Okay, so talking about the medium is the message, I think is very applicable here because 00:16:08,260 --> 00:16:14,040 [ERIC] if you think about the form factor of the phones that had T9 Word- 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:14,450 [JOHN] Yes 00:16:14,450 --> 00:16:16,500 [ERIC] ... the screens were s- very small. 00:16:16,500 --> 00:16:17,580 [JOHN] Yes. 00:16:17,580 --> 00:16:23,300 [ERIC] There were hard limits on the number of characters you could send in a text message. 00:16:23,300 --> 00:16:24,760 [JOHN] Right. 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:28,200 [ERIC] And so it was, 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:43,880 [ERIC] it, it was, uh... And just the, the f- it was expedient, but it did not create the same type of entertainment, like dopamine reward- 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:44,049 [JOHN] Right 00:16:44,049 --> 00:16:47,360 [ERIC] ... for instantaneous response. 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:47,580 [JOHN] Right. 00:16:47,580 --> 00:16:58,950 [ERIC] You know, it just felt like a very different... It felt, it felt more transactional, you know, in terms of this is pretty functional, right? Like, I'm checking in with you. I'm word, you know, which still happened. 00:16:58,950 --> 00:17:04,040 [JOHN] I mean, it depended. I, I remember text- texting some girls that I liked, where there was, [chuckles] there was- 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:04,480 [ERIC] That's true 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:08,560 [JOHN] ... definitely some, like, kind of like, how long are they gonna take, you know, to text me back- 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:08,770 [ERIC] Yeah, that's true 00:17:08,770 --> 00:17:11,140 [JOHN] ... on their T9 Word. But other than that, yeah. 00:17:11,140 --> 00:17:13,349 [ERIC] Yes. [chuckles] 00:17:13,349 --> 00:17:13,420 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:17:13,420 --> 00:17:14,870 [ERIC] I think that's contextual- 00:17:14,870 --> 00:17:14,870 [JOHN] Fair 00:17:14,870 --> 00:17:17,740 [ERIC] ... because we, you know, that could happen with email, though, too. 00:17:17,740 --> 00:17:18,220 [JOHN] That's true. 00:17:18,220 --> 00:17:20,060 [ERIC] But I also am just justifying. 00:17:20,060 --> 00:17:20,579 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:17:20,579 --> 00:17:20,990 [ERIC] [chuckles] 00:17:20,990 --> 00:17:23,220 [JOHN] Good. Yeah. Well, let's look at the data, the email. 00:17:23,220 --> 00:17:43,160 [ERIC] Okay, let's look at the data. Let's look at the email data. Okay, let me share my screen here. So I wanted to actually test... The idea here is that I wanted to test this theory, [lips smack] uh, I wanted to test this theory about 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,560 [ERIC] the change in the communication channel. 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:47,360 [JOHN] [lips smack] Yes. 00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:51,619 [ERIC] And, you know, are these communication channels actually changing in this way- 00:17:51,620 --> 00:17:51,710 [JOHN] Right 00:17:51,710 --> 00:17:53,100 [ERIC] ... and moving towards entertainment, right? 00:17:53,100 --> 00:18:00,760 [JOHN] Which email's a little fuzzier, 'cause the text is so clear. Like, there's three eras. There's, like, T9 Word, clicky keyb- like- 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:00,770 [ERIC] Yes 00:18:00,770 --> 00:18:07,320 [JOHN] ... BlackBerry keyboard, and iPhone. This one's more subtle because the, the email, um, medium- 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:07,340 [ERIC] Yep 00:18:07,340 --> 00:18:11,119 [JOHN] ... has kind of been the same, but other things have changed kind of around it. 00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:13,220 [ERIC] Yes, exactly. 00:18:13,220 --> 00:18:13,320 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:18,980 [ERIC] So-... you're a data guy, so I'm gonna give you my methodology here, and you can tell me- 00:18:18,980 --> 00:18:19,010 [JOHN] I love it. [chuckles] 00:18:19,010 --> 00:18:25,169 [ERIC] -if you think it's sound, because actually digging into the data was, um, it was really interesting, and there- 00:18:25,169 --> 00:18:25,169 [JOHN] Sure 00:18:25,169 --> 00:18:27,639 [ERIC] ... are a lot of outliers that I had to deal with. Okay? 00:18:27,639 --> 00:18:28,860 [JOHN] Mm-hmm. 00:18:28,860 --> 00:18:30,879 [ERIC] So 00:18:30,879 --> 00:18:37,739 [ERIC] I used IMAP to pull twenty years of data from Gmail- 00:18:37,740 --> 00:18:38,240 [JOHN] Nice 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:39,490 [ERIC] ... locally. Um- 00:18:39,490 --> 00:18:42,000 [JOHN] How long did that take? 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,840 [ERIC] I actually-- You wanna know what's great? I just did it through Apple Mail. 00:18:45,399 --> 00:18:45,639 [JOHN] Really? 00:18:45,639 --> 00:18:46,700 [ERIC] Just let it sync. 00:18:46,700 --> 00:18:46,710 [JOHN] Okay. 00:18:46,710 --> 00:18:47,779 [ERIC] And it took a long time. 00:18:47,780 --> 00:18:48,040 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:48,569 [ERIC] But, you know- 00:18:48,569 --> 00:18:48,569 [JOHN] Makes sense 00:18:48,569 --> 00:18:49,560 [ERIC] ... it took a couple of hours. 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:49,940 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:18:49,940 --> 00:18:53,290 [ERIC] Um, but I was like, "This is easy. It's just gonna be in a very- 00:18:53,290 --> 00:18:53,310 [JOHN] Mm-hmm 00:18:53,310 --> 00:18:56,819 [ERIC] ... nice, you know, format." Uh, and I didn't have to deal with APIs or anything. 00:18:56,820 --> 00:18:57,840 [JOHN] Right. 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:05,740 [ERIC] And so then I just copied the... Well, actually, what I did was I sort of ran an initial analysis. I just used Cursor- 00:19:05,740 --> 00:19:06,300 [JOHN] Mm-hmm 00:19:06,300 --> 00:19:19,779 [ERIC] ... you know, to write some Python scripts to do an analysis. And what I realized was that, um, responses, you know, from different email clients and then threading made it very difficult- 00:19:19,780 --> 00:19:20,639 [JOHN] Right 00:19:20,639 --> 00:19:24,000 [ERIC] ... to analyze things because there's so much variance in how that stuff is broken up. 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:24,440 [JOHN] Right. 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:25,860 [ERIC] Um, 00:19:25,860 --> 00:19:30,840 [ERIC] you know, even in the way that some email clients will respond, and, you know, it can get tricky. 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:31,639 [JOHN] Mm-hmm. 00:19:31,639 --> 00:19:34,420 [ERIC] Uh, and so 00:19:34,420 --> 00:20:09,580 [ERIC] I narrowed it down initially to just emails that I sent, you know, so emails sent by me, and then I had to narrow it down even more to emails that I sent that were the beginning of a conversation, so, like, initiated conversations, to sort of rule out... I mean, I just didn't wanna spend hours going through a bunch of edge cases and trying to deal with the outliers that were skewing the data. And so I thought, okay, emails that I send that initiate a conversation is a normalized data set that would show me trends- 00:20:09,580 --> 00:20:09,810 [JOHN] Yes 00:20:09,810 --> 00:20:10,540 [ERIC] ... over time- 00:20:10,540 --> 00:20:11,250 [JOHN] Right 00:20:11,250 --> 00:20:13,980 [ERIC] ... around how am I communicating with other people? 00:20:13,980 --> 00:20:15,000 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:26,590 [ERIC] And so for those of you who are not looking at the video, we have a couple charts here, uh, from my email analysis, which I actually thought it's kind of crazy, twenty years of email data is really- 00:20:26,590 --> 00:20:26,800 [JOHN] Yeah 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:27,620 [ERIC] ... interesting. 00:20:27,620 --> 00:20:28,379 [JOHN] Right. 00:20:28,379 --> 00:20:59,080 [ERIC] The... Okay, so the first chart is time on the X-axis and then average words per email on the Y-axis. And, uh, the trend, so 2005 to 2009, these are in five-year chunks on the X-axis. So 2005 to 2009, about sixty words per email, a peak of over 120 words per email from 2010 to 2014, 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:15,620 [ERIC] just under a hundred from 2015 to 2019, a low of forty, or just under forty, from 2020 to 2024, and then 2025 was an average of sixty. So I came back up to my original... You know, I sort of started- 00:21:15,620 --> 00:21:15,629 [JOHN] Right 00:21:15,629 --> 00:21:16,980 [ERIC] ... and ended in the same place. 00:21:16,980 --> 00:21:17,139 [JOHN] Yeah. Yeah. 00:21:17,139 --> 00:21:19,620 [ERIC] Uh, although that's just one year of a five-year period. 00:21:19,620 --> 00:21:25,470 [JOHN] So we've got to dig in on the cohorts of, like, who you're communicating with, what they- [laughing] 00:21:25,470 --> 00:21:26,179 [ERIC] [chuckles] I'll let you do that. 00:21:26,179 --> 00:21:26,620 [JOHN] What are your roles? [chuckles] 00:21:26,620 --> 00:21:29,090 [ERIC] That's an agreeable data project, right? [chuckles] 00:21:29,090 --> 00:21:29,740 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:21:29,740 --> 00:21:42,980 [ERIC] But what was interesting to me, one of the most interesting things, and again, those of you who aren't watching the video, the second chart shows the number of emails in the same time period, so the quantity of emails- 00:21:42,980 --> 00:21:42,990 [JOHN] Yeah 00:21:42,990 --> 00:21:54,379 [ERIC] ... that I initiated. Um, and it roughly follows the same trend, and so my longest- my longer emails are also associated with sending more emails. 00:21:54,379 --> 00:21:54,800 [JOHN] Yeah, that's interesting. 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,879 [ERIC] It's not as if I was sending less longer emails. 00:21:58,879 --> 00:21:59,460 [JOHN] Right. Yeah. 00:21:59,460 --> 00:22:11,460 [ERIC] Um, with the exception being 2025, where my average word count increased, but I sent a very low number of emails, and that's just one year, but even if you extrapolate it out over- 00:22:11,460 --> 00:22:11,470 [JOHN] Right 00:22:11,470 --> 00:22:15,210 [ERIC] ... a five-year period, um, it's still low relative to the other years. 00:22:15,210 --> 00:22:15,220 [JOHN] Right. 00:22:15,220 --> 00:22:21,879 [ERIC] So I have sent way less email, and they have been way, way shorter. 00:22:21,879 --> 00:22:22,260 [JOHN] Right. 00:22:22,260 --> 00:22:27,139 [ERIC] Almost trending more towards a message, you know, a text message-esque- 00:22:27,139 --> 00:22:27,659 [JOHN] Well- 00:22:27,659 --> 00:22:27,810 [ERIC] uh, trend 00:22:27,810 --> 00:22:34,720 [JOHN] ... and we don't have the data here, but what's your theory on what the text message data would look like over those time periods? 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,520 [ERIC] Uh, okay, well, one more email chart- 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:36,650 [JOHN] Yes 00:22:36,650 --> 00:22:38,170 [ERIC] ... because this is also interesting. 00:22:38,170 --> 00:22:39,240 [JOHN] Hmm. Yeah. 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:50,740 [ERIC] The last view that I thought would help me triangulate whether or not the, the trend that the author of that post mentioned about- 00:22:50,740 --> 00:22:50,750 [JOHN] Hmm 00:22:50,750 --> 00:22:51,360 [ERIC] ... you know- 00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:51,900 [JOHN] Right 00:22:51,900 --> 00:22:55,580 [ERIC] ... there's more volume of messages, but we're less connected. Is that true? 00:22:55,580 --> 00:22:55,879 [JOHN] Right. 00:22:55,879 --> 00:23:03,500 [ERIC] I thought about the, the sort of character qualities of the message itself. 00:23:03,500 --> 00:23:04,080 [JOHN] Okay. 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:05,460 [ERIC] So 00:23:05,460 --> 00:23:14,460 [ERIC] were these more personal, longer form, like, communications, or was it a bunch of back and forth with a customer support rep, you know, that are- 00:23:14,460 --> 00:23:14,540 [JOHN] Sure 00:23:14,540 --> 00:23:15,279 [ERIC] ... like, more transactional? 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:16,260 [JOHN] Right. 00:23:16,260 --> 00:23:24,360 [ERIC] And so I created an index for the level of, like, relational... Like, w-what is the index for- 00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:24,370 [JOHN] Hmm 00:23:24,370 --> 00:23:25,949 [ERIC] ... how relational the content is? 00:23:25,949 --> 00:23:26,000 [JOHN] Okay. 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:36,070 [ERIC] So that could be personal greetings, you know, cursor generated. This is the, this is the composite. [chuckles] This is the, what comprises the composite. Personal- 00:23:36,070 --> 00:23:37,879 [JOHN] How, how many tokens did you spend? [chuckles] 00:23:37,879 --> 00:23:39,679 [ERIC] I d- [chuckles] didn't even look. 00:23:39,679 --> 00:23:40,379 [JOHN] Sorry. [chuckles] 00:23:40,379 --> 00:23:44,420 [ERIC] Personal greetings, questions about life, warmth, and storytelling. 00:23:44,420 --> 00:23:44,980 [JOHN] Hmm. 00:23:44,980 --> 00:23:45,260 [ERIC] Um- 00:23:45,260 --> 00:23:47,100 [JOHN] Okay. 00:23:47,100 --> 00:23:49,629 [ERIC] But it follows the exact same trend line, which is also- 00:23:49,629 --> 00:23:49,629 [JOHN] Yeah 00:23:49,629 --> 00:23:50,699 [ERIC] ... like, very interesting- 00:23:50,699 --> 00:23:50,958 [JOHN] Mm-hmm 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:51,019 [ERIC] ... to me. Um- 00:23:51,020 --> 00:23:52,980 [JOHN] So it gets more transactional over time, roughly. 00:23:52,980 --> 00:23:54,920 [ERIC] It gets more transactional over time. 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:54,990 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:23:54,990 --> 00:24:04,740 [ERIC] Yep. So shorter emails, less emails, more transactional over time. Uh, and so that's, uh, 00:24:04,740 --> 00:24:13,679 [ERIC] that's the email data. So I, I think that, that it-- that I personally have largely experienced the truth of what that author was saying- 00:24:13,679 --> 00:24:13,940 [JOHN] Yeah 00:24:13,940 --> 00:24:19,760 [ERIC] ... you know, with change in the email channel. But you asked about text messages. Um- 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,360 [JOHN] Just hypothetically, what do you think the graphs look like? 00:24:23,967 --> 00:24:26,727 [ERIC] ... it's inverted for sure- 00:24:26,727 --> 00:24:26,776 [JOHN] Yeah 00:24:26,776 --> 00:24:30,447 [ERIC] -because there's just way-- the quantity of text messages is way higher. 00:24:30,447 --> 00:24:31,487 [JOHN] For sure. 00:24:31,487 --> 00:24:40,447 [ERIC] Although I think that the length of text message has probably fallen dramatically in the last couple years- 00:24:40,447 --> 00:24:40,727 [JOHN] Mm-hmm 00:24:40,727 --> 00:24:47,747 [ERIC] -because of the features that Apple has implemented. So, for example- 00:24:47,747 --> 00:24:47,757 [JOHN] Right 00:24:47,757 --> 00:24:49,278 [ERIC] ... things like tap backs, right? 00:24:49,278 --> 00:24:49,348 [JOHN] Right. 00:24:49,348 --> 00:24:50,487 [ERIC] Where you just long press. 00:24:50,487 --> 00:24:51,588 [JOHN] Thumbs up or whatever. 00:24:51,588 --> 00:24:52,388 [ERIC] Yeah, exactly. 00:24:52,388 --> 00:24:52,398 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:24:52,398 --> 00:24:52,888 [ERIC] You know? 00:24:52,888 --> 00:24:53,247 [JOHN] Mm-hmm. 00:24:53,247 --> 00:24:54,288 [ERIC] Exclamation point, heart- 00:24:54,288 --> 00:24:54,628 [JOHN] Yep 00:24:54,628 --> 00:24:55,628 [ERIC] ... you know, all that sort of stuff. 00:24:55,628 --> 00:24:56,207 [JOHN] Yep. 00:24:56,207 --> 00:24:56,726 [ERIC] Um- 00:24:56,727 --> 00:24:58,447 [JOHN] Good point. 00:24:58,447 --> 00:25:00,268 [ERIC] But 00:25:00,268 --> 00:25:11,967 [ERIC] so I do think that the quantity of text messages increased, right? Because the other thing is, to your point, there's way more commercial context in messages. 00:25:11,967 --> 00:25:12,528 [JOHN] Right. 00:25:12,528 --> 00:25:15,088 [ERIC] So that could be shipping notifications- 00:25:15,088 --> 00:25:15,178 [JOHN] Right 00:25:15,178 --> 00:25:26,028 [ERIC] ... it could be like customer support conversations, it could be, you know, marketing messages from brands, it could be coordinating with a handyman who's coming to fix your dishwasher. 00:25:26,028 --> 00:25:26,507 [JOHN] True. 00:25:26,507 --> 00:25:35,408 [ERIC] Right? And so from that standpoint, messaging has become, like, far more fragmented across a bunch of different contexts- 00:25:35,408 --> 00:25:35,947 [JOHN] Right 00:25:35,947 --> 00:25:37,487 [ERIC] ... than it was previously- 00:25:37,487 --> 00:25:37,497 [JOHN] Right 00:25:37,497 --> 00:25:40,388 [ERIC] ... you know, which I think would contribute to a pretty significant volume- 00:25:40,388 --> 00:25:40,727 [JOHN] Yeah 00:25:40,727 --> 00:25:41,668 [ERIC] ... volume increase. 00:25:41,668 --> 00:25:42,328 [JOHN] Mm-hmm. 00:25:42,328 --> 00:25:44,388 [ERIC] Although I think it has become more transactional. 00:25:44,388 --> 00:25:55,368 [JOHN] Yep. That checks out. I, I'm- I keep my text messages really... I'm [chuckles] super obsessive about keeping them, keeping marketing and stuff out of them. 00:25:55,368 --> 00:25:56,048 [ERIC] Mm. 00:25:56,048 --> 00:26:00,168 [JOHN] I'm the, like, stop, unsubscribe, mark as spam guy- 00:26:00,168 --> 00:26:00,707 [ERIC] Mm 00:26:00,707 --> 00:26:01,408 [JOHN] ... with all that stuff. 00:26:01,408 --> 00:26:02,368 [ERIC] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 00:26:02,368 --> 00:26:03,148 [JOHN] Like, like every day. 00:26:03,148 --> 00:26:10,308 [ERIC] Yeah. Okay, every day. That is very Inbox Zero-esque, which we need to circle back to. 00:26:10,308 --> 00:26:11,786 [JOHN] Mm, we do. 00:26:11,788 --> 00:26:13,348 [ERIC] So 00:26:13,408 --> 00:26:17,067 [ERIC] what... Give us a working definition of Inbox Zero or an official definition of Inbox Zero. 00:26:17,068 --> 00:26:27,507 [JOHN] I don't think I have an official one, [clears throat] but I remember when this became big, and I believe it was from lifehacker.com. It's 2012 era, when it was good. 00:26:27,507 --> 00:26:27,868 [ERIC] Mm-hmm. 00:26:27,868 --> 00:26:29,928 [JOHN] Um, [chuckles] and the- 00:26:29,928 --> 00:26:30,128 [ERIC] Yes. 00:26:30,128 --> 00:26:31,568 [JOHN] You know, all the, all of these things- 00:26:31,568 --> 00:26:31,658 [ERIC] Yes 00:26:31,658 --> 00:26:33,927 [JOHN] ... trend toward marketing and clickbait, right, over time? 00:26:33,927 --> 00:26:34,307 [ERIC] Yes. Yep. 00:26:34,308 --> 00:26:39,328 [JOHN] But it was really good then, really great stuff. And yeah, so 00:26:39,328 --> 00:26:53,187 [JOHN] basically, three components, I think, that I've adopted from it. One, is the goal is every day to get to Inbox Zero, and, and I'm not perfect at this. I'd say w- weekly, roughly. Get to Inbox Zero, which means you have to make decisions on each email. 00:26:53,187 --> 00:26:53,947 [ERIC] Mm-hmm. 00:26:53,947 --> 00:26:59,268 [JOHN] And the decision is archive or delete if you're a deleter, but I'm an archiver. Archive- 00:26:59,268 --> 00:26:59,947 [ERIC] Yep 00:26:59,947 --> 00:27:00,848 [JOHN] ... snooze. 00:27:00,848 --> 00:27:01,098 [ERIC] Mm-hmm. 00:27:01,098 --> 00:27:09,848 [JOHN] Like, I'll do this in two weeks, I'll do this on Friday, whatever. Or actually, like, do something about it, like reply to it, put it in your task management system, whatever. 00:27:09,848 --> 00:27:10,207 [ERIC] Yep. 00:27:10,207 --> 00:27:12,947 [JOHN] Action. So that, that's my application of- 00:27:12,947 --> 00:27:13,148 [ERIC] Yes 00:27:13,148 --> 00:27:14,048 [JOHN] ... Inbox Zero. [chuckles] 00:27:14,048 --> 00:27:28,828 [ERIC] I think that's- I think that is- I think that's a great explanation, and actually, this is... What's really interesting that, that the concept of Inbox Zero came up here because 00:27:28,828 --> 00:27:38,928 [ERIC] immediately after my friend responded with shock about the number of unreads I had, you know, on my Messages icon, 00:27:38,928 --> 00:27:44,328 [ERIC] I immediately thought about... This is- you're gonna find this so 00:27:44,328 --> 00:27:45,507 [ERIC] interesting, hopefully- 00:27:45,507 --> 00:27:45,937 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:27:45,937 --> 00:27:52,638 [ERIC] ... or weird. [chuckles] But let's just imagine that my brain is a vector database. [chuckles] 00:27:52,638 --> 00:27:52,648 [JOHN] [chuckles] Okay. 00:27:52,648 --> 00:27:54,947 [ERIC] Because we have to, we have to relate this back to AI. 00:27:54,947 --> 00:27:55,967 [JOHN] Let's just imagine. 00:27:55,967 --> 00:27:57,288 [ERIC] Right? 00:27:57,288 --> 00:27:57,608 [JOHN] Okay. 00:27:57,608 --> 00:28:00,348 [ERIC] And so 00:28:00,408 --> 00:28:03,996 [ERIC] my brain's query engine- 00:28:03,996 --> 00:28:04,007 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:28:04,007 --> 00:28:06,027 [ERIC] ... pulled up 00:28:06,027 --> 00:28:10,928 [ERIC] a, a memory of a screenshot 00:28:10,987 --> 00:28:17,937 [ERIC] of the iPhone of the guy who coined the term Inbox Zero. 00:28:17,937 --> 00:28:18,007 [JOHN] Inbox Zero. 00:28:18,007 --> 00:28:21,088 [ERIC] That is what I thought of instantaneously- 00:28:21,088 --> 00:28:21,098 [JOHN] Yes 00:28:21,098 --> 00:28:25,768 [ERIC] ... after my friend had his reaction. Okay? And 00:28:25,768 --> 00:28:27,737 [ERIC] I will just show... I'll show it, actually- 00:28:27,737 --> 00:28:27,737 [JOHN] Yeah 00:28:27,737 --> 00:28:32,788 [ERIC] ... because I have a picture of it. [clears throat] It took a little while to dig it up. 00:28:32,788 --> 00:28:41,608 [JOHN] Okay, here we go. Which I love this picture, so if you're listening, it's a screenshot from an iPhone. Upper left corner, AT&T 3G. 00:28:41,608 --> 00:28:42,608 [ERIC] Yep. 00:28:42,608 --> 00:28:49,527 [JOHN] And it has all of the, um, like, original icons. You know, when everything looked like physical objects, like the notebook. 00:28:49,527 --> 00:28:50,348 [ERIC] Skeuomorphic. 00:28:50,348 --> 00:28:51,518 [JOHN] Skeuomorphic, that's the word. 00:28:51,518 --> 00:28:52,068 [ERIC] That's the term. 00:28:52,068 --> 00:28:54,148 [JOHN] And it's got the iPod- 00:28:54,148 --> 00:28:54,748 [ERIC] Yes 00:28:54,748 --> 00:28:54,957 [JOHN] ... app, which is fun. 00:28:54,957 --> 00:28:57,207 [ERIC] It has the iPod app. 00:28:57,207 --> 00:28:57,408 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:28:57,408 --> 00:28:59,108 [ERIC] I mean, incredible. 00:28:59,108 --> 00:28:59,788 [JOHN] Incredible. 00:28:59,788 --> 00:29:17,628 [ERIC] Absolutely incredible. Uh, and then also just the pixel density on the screen. So, you know, for those of you listening, there's Merlin Mann's... a screenshot of Merlin Mann's iPhone from 2011, and then a screenshot of my phone from a couple weeks ago, which I think is an iPhone 12 Pro. 00:29:17,628 --> 00:29:17,908 [JOHN] Yep. 00:29:17,908 --> 00:29:19,168 [ERIC] Um, so I'm way behind. 00:29:19,168 --> 00:29:19,848 [JOHN] Yeah, you are. 00:29:19,848 --> 00:29:20,687 [ERIC] Way behind. 00:29:20,687 --> 00:29:20,888 [JOHN] Sure. 00:29:20,888 --> 00:29:36,828 [ERIC] Um, uh, and even just... Yeah, the, the difference is, is pretty striking. But Merlin Mann, who coined the term Inbox Zero, um, 00:29:36,828 --> 00:29:42,998 [ERIC] I followed him pretty religiously during this time period. 00:29:42,998 --> 00:29:43,027 [JOHN] Wow. 00:29:43,027 --> 00:29:45,447 [ERIC] He had a blog called 43folders.com. 00:29:45,447 --> 00:29:45,467 [JOHN] Okay. 00:29:45,467 --> 00:29:48,027 [ERIC] You can still go there. The content is still amazing. 00:29:48,027 --> 00:29:49,007 [JOHN] Okay. 00:29:49,007 --> 00:29:57,447 [ERIC] Uh, but I was sort of forming, you know, in my early career, you know, how do I... Especially as an early founder, I got really into it- 00:29:57,447 --> 00:29:57,457 [JOHN] Hmm, yeah 00:29:57,457 --> 00:30:03,568 [ERIC] ... because the amount of things that I had to manage was significant, and so- 00:30:03,568 --> 00:30:03,947 [JOHN] Right 00:30:03,947 --> 00:30:08,668 [ERIC] ... you know, you face this sort of product- productivity crisis of: how do I get all this stuff done? 00:30:08,668 --> 00:30:09,568 [JOHN] Right. 00:30:09,568 --> 00:30:15,788 [ERIC] And somehow I found Merlin Mann, and if you are the type of person who likes 00:30:15,788 --> 00:30:21,308 [ERIC] thinking about productivity and putting together processes and methodologies- 00:30:21,308 --> 00:30:21,378 [JOHN] Right 00:30:21,378 --> 00:30:24,507 [ERIC] ... and all that sort of stuff, but without all the snake oil- 00:30:24,507 --> 00:30:24,768 [JOHN] Yeah 00:30:24,768 --> 00:30:27,947 [ERIC] ... you know, stuff, Merlin Mann is the best. 00:30:27,947 --> 00:30:28,288 [JOHN] He's the guy. 00:30:28,288 --> 00:30:42,372 [ERIC] Um, highly recommended.... and so he was very formative, and I remember I found someone, one of his friends wrote a blog about, which this is hilarious, how to organize 00:30:42,432 --> 00:30:44,992 [ERIC] the apps on your iPhone. 00:30:44,992 --> 00:30:46,292 [JOHN] I think I remember this. 00:30:46,292 --> 00:30:51,332 [ERIC] Yeah. Um, and that's, that's how I found the screenshot, and that's what I remembered from- 00:30:51,332 --> 00:30:52,102 [JOHN] Mm. Okay. 00:30:52,102 --> 00:30:54,892 [ERIC] But what was interesting was 00:30:54,892 --> 00:30:59,132 [ERIC] when my mind brought this, you know, brought the screenshot- 00:30:59,132 --> 00:30:59,142 [JOHN] Yeah 00:30:59,142 --> 00:30:59,422 [ERIC] ... of this iPhone- 00:30:59,422 --> 00:30:59,542 [JOHN] The retrieval 00:30:59,542 --> 00:31:00,252 [ERIC] ... from this blog post. 00:31:00,252 --> 00:31:00,402 [JOHN] Yeah. [chuckles] 00:31:00,402 --> 00:31:02,912 [ERIC] Yeah, the retrieval, from almost fifteen years ago. 00:31:02,912 --> 00:31:02,922 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:31:02,922 --> 00:31:04,652 [ERIC] And it was just crazy to me how instantaneous- 00:31:04,652 --> 00:31:04,792 [JOHN] Yeah 00:31:04,792 --> 00:31:05,652 [ERIC] ... it was that I thought about this. 00:31:05,652 --> 00:31:07,732 [JOHN] Mm-hmm. 00:31:07,732 --> 00:31:15,092 [ERIC] Um, but it's because Merlin Mann, the inbox zero guy, 00:31:15,092 --> 00:31:17,052 [ERIC] has fifty-seven unread- 00:31:17,052 --> 00:31:17,102 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:31:17,102 --> 00:31:21,202 [ERIC] ... text messages, uh, on the messages icon- 00:31:21,202 --> 00:31:21,202 [JOHN] Right 00:31:21,202 --> 00:31:29,212 [ERIC] ... on his phone. And for me, this was a major look in the mirror moment because 00:31:29,212 --> 00:31:40,532 [ERIC] I remember having a reaction very similar to my friend when I saw this. How can... You know, especially because it's Merlin Mann, he's the inbox zero guy. 00:31:40,532 --> 00:31:40,732 [JOHN] Yeah, yeah. 00:31:40,732 --> 00:31:43,872 [ERIC] Like, how does he have fifty-seven unread- 00:31:43,872 --> 00:31:43,882 [JOHN] Right 00:31:43,882 --> 00:31:44,532 [ERIC] ... messages? 00:31:44,532 --> 00:31:44,872 [JOHN] Right. 00:31:44,872 --> 00:32:04,752 [ERIC] Um, you know, which was wild. And so back then, I had the same reaction that my friend had, and, you know, now I'm experiencing the great reversal, and now I identify much more closely with at least the Merlin Mann of 2011. [laughing] You know, in, i- i- in the context of- 00:32:04,752 --> 00:32:05,042 [JOHN] Which we, which we've- 00:32:05,042 --> 00:32:05,702 [ERIC] ... text message bankruptcy. 00:32:05,702 --> 00:32:16,392 [JOHN] Which we have esta- established that the, uh, fifty-seven unread messages of 2011 is maybe equivalent to the two hundred and forty-seven of 2026. 00:32:16,392 --> 00:32:18,052 [ERIC] Yes, there's inflation. 00:32:18,052 --> 00:32:19,202 [JOHN] There's definitely inflation. 00:32:19,202 --> 00:32:21,272 [ERIC] There's inflation because of the quantity- 00:32:21,272 --> 00:32:22,212 [JOHN] Yes. 00:32:22,272 --> 00:32:25,222 [ERIC] Uh, because of the increase in quantity that we talked about, right? 00:32:25,222 --> 00:32:25,232 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:32:25,232 --> 00:32:27,702 [ERIC] There were just- there are way, way, way more messages being sent- 00:32:27,702 --> 00:32:27,702 [JOHN] Yeah 00:32:27,702 --> 00:32:29,332 [ERIC] ... across a variety of contexts. 00:32:29,332 --> 00:32:29,412 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:32:29,412 --> 00:32:36,452 [ERIC] And so, um, you know, this is the classic in 2011 dollars. Um, in twenty- 00:32:36,452 --> 00:32:36,582 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:32:36,582 --> 00:32:38,452 [ERIC] ... in 2011 messages, my- 00:32:38,452 --> 00:32:38,652 [JOHN] Right 00:32:38,652 --> 00:32:40,931 [ERIC] ... two forty-seven is probably fifty-seven. 00:32:40,932 --> 00:32:41,141 [JOHN] Right. Right. 00:32:41,141 --> 00:32:41,972 [ERIC] You know, so- 00:32:41,972 --> 00:32:42,392 [JOHN] Right 00:32:42,392 --> 00:32:43,732 [ERIC] ... we're, we're roughly on the same- 00:32:43,732 --> 00:32:43,741 [JOHN] Yeah 00:32:43,741 --> 00:32:44,872 [ERIC] ... playing field. 00:32:44,872 --> 00:32:49,312 [JOHN] So we've, we've, uh, we've done a lot to actually justify your current position- 00:32:49,312 --> 00:32:49,862 [ERIC] [chuckles] 00:32:49,862 --> 00:32:54,741 [JOHN] ... yet bankruptcy is still the term we're using. So where do we go, where do we go from here? [chuckles] 00:32:54,741 --> 00:32:59,632 [ERIC] I love this live therapy. Well, okay, so 00:32:59,632 --> 00:33:04,252 [ERIC] first of all, uh, I do need to say that 00:33:04,252 --> 00:33:09,552 [ERIC] I- part of me just really doesn't like the changes- 00:33:09,552 --> 00:33:09,652 [JOHN] Right 00:33:09,652 --> 00:33:13,572 [ERIC] ... that have happened. Um, 00:33:13,572 --> 00:33:15,312 [ERIC] and 00:33:15,312 --> 00:33:16,961 [ERIC] especially because I'm a tool guy. 00:33:16,961 --> 00:33:16,991 [JOHN] Right. 00:33:16,992 --> 00:33:20,312 [ERIC] I mean, I'm a Raycast guy, right? Um- 00:33:20,312 --> 00:33:22,262 [JOHN] Fe- featured in your screenshot, actually- 00:33:22,262 --> 00:33:22,672 [ERIC] Featured 00:33:22,672 --> 00:33:23,612 [JOHN] ... if you look at that. 00:33:23,612 --> 00:33:23,722 [ERIC] Uh- 00:33:23,722 --> 00:33:25,172 [JOHN] It's subtle, but it's there. 00:33:25,172 --> 00:33:27,832 [ERIC] Oh, yes! Raycast is in the screenshot. 00:33:27,832 --> 00:33:27,872 [JOHN] It's on your blog. 00:33:27,872 --> 00:33:28,852 [ERIC] For those of you listening- 00:33:28,852 --> 00:33:28,972 [JOHN] Yep 00:33:28,972 --> 00:33:33,662 [ERIC] ... the Raycast is a widget on my main iPhone screen. 00:33:33,662 --> 00:33:33,662 [JOHN] Yep. 00:33:33,662 --> 00:33:44,022 [ERIC] And for those of you who don't know what Raycast is, we'll put it in the show notes, but, uh, it's sort of a way for you to control most things on your computer and even third-party apps through a single interface. 00:33:44,022 --> 00:33:44,032 [JOHN] Right. 00:33:44,032 --> 00:33:49,152 [ERIC] And so for sort of workflow optimization, it's a marvelous, you know- 00:33:49,152 --> 00:33:49,162 [JOHN] Yeah 00:33:49,162 --> 00:33:50,012 [ERIC] ... it's a marvelous tool. 00:33:50,012 --> 00:33:51,012 [JOHN] Mm-hmm. 00:33:51,012 --> 00:33:53,452 [ERIC] Um, I actually wonder what Merlin Mann would think about Raycast. 00:33:53,452 --> 00:33:54,132 [JOHN] I don't know. 00:33:54,132 --> 00:33:55,422 [ERIC] Maybe we'll try to get him on the show. 00:33:55,422 --> 00:34:01,092 [JOHN] [chuckles] Send an email with the subject line, Raycast. [chuckles] 00:34:01,092 --> 00:34:05,772 [ERIC] So I... [chuckles] That might be interesting. Um- 00:34:05,772 --> 00:34:07,112 [JOHN] We know he will read it. 00:34:07,112 --> 00:34:09,662 [ERIC] We know he will read it because he's the inbox zero. 00:34:09,662 --> 00:34:09,692 [JOHN] Right. 00:34:09,692 --> 00:34:10,912 [ERIC] But we can't text him. 00:34:10,912 --> 00:34:11,772 [JOHN] Yeah, correct. [chuckles] 00:34:11,772 --> 00:34:25,472 [ERIC] Clearly. Uh, so two thousand... What is- I don't, you know, I'm a... Because I enjoy finding tools that make sense for managing, you know, these processes- 00:34:25,472 --> 00:34:26,842 [JOHN] Yeah 00:34:26,842 --> 00:34:28,512 [ERIC] ... um, 00:34:28,512 --> 00:34:32,872 [ERIC] the form factor that we talked about with messaging is just... I, I just don't like interacting with it- 00:34:32,872 --> 00:34:32,932 [JOHN] Right 00:34:32,932 --> 00:34:35,112 [ERIC] ... because it feels so primitive. 00:34:35,112 --> 00:34:35,252 [JOHN] Right. 00:34:35,252 --> 00:34:36,972 [ERIC] Right? It's a horrible tool set- 00:34:36,972 --> 00:34:37,391 [JOHN] Right 00:34:37,391 --> 00:34:50,292 [ERIC] ... to deal with a bunch of, to deal with a bunch of messages. Um, the other thing, actually, going back to Merlin Mann, is called the pebble problem, um, which he coined. And when I looked this up- 00:34:50,351 --> 00:34:50,362 [JOHN] Okay. 00:34:50,362 --> 00:35:08,652 [ERIC] [clears throat] I remember the pebble problem. Uh, I also... It was great just reminiscing about Merlin Mann in general, but this is in twenty, uh, tw- uh, this is in 2007, that he wrote about this, and I just searched for the pebble problem, Merlin Mann- 00:35:08,652 --> 00:35:08,812 [JOHN] Okay 00:35:08,812 --> 00:35:16,952 [ERIC] ... I think is what I used, and it pulled up this blog post, and the title of the blog post 00:35:16,952 --> 00:35:22,572 [ERIC] is, "The Strange Allure and False Hope of Email Bankruptcy." 00:35:22,572 --> 00:35:23,312 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:35:23,312 --> 00:35:25,101 [ERIC] I mean, how amazing is that? 00:35:25,101 --> 00:35:25,182 [JOHN] That's awesome. 00:35:25,182 --> 00:35:28,512 [ERIC] Also, this is the year that the iPhone was released, which is pretty interesting. 00:35:28,512 --> 00:35:28,552 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:35:28,552 --> 00:36:01,252 [ERIC] You know, so, um... Okay, so I'm gonna read, I'm gonna read this quote about the pebble problem: "Email is such a funny thing. People hand you these l- single little messages that are no heavier than a river pebble, but it doesn't take long until you've acquired a pile of pebbles that is taller than you and heavier than you could ever hope to move, even if you wanted to do it over a few dozen trips. But for the person who took the time to hand you their pebble, it seems outrageous that you can't handle that one tiny thing. What pile? It's just a pebble." So 00:36:01,252 --> 00:36:12,932 [ERIC] I also think that the, um, because messaging has become so transactional, because there's much more of an entertainment context- 00:36:12,932 --> 00:36:14,092 [JOHN] Right 00:36:14,092 --> 00:36:27,752 [ERIC] ... to it, um, even down to the form factor, that the, like, weight of sending a message has become lighter in a negative way, right? 00:36:27,752 --> 00:36:27,832 [JOHN] Right. 00:36:27,832 --> 00:36:32,272 [ERIC] So if emails are pebbles, I would say text messages are like grains of sand. 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:33,060 [JOHN] ... Right. 00:36:33,060 --> 00:36:34,100 [ERIC] Um, you know- 00:36:34,100 --> 00:36:36,060 [JOHN] Especially in a large group chat. [chuckles] 00:36:36,060 --> 00:36:39,030 [ERIC] Especially in a large group chat, right? 00:36:39,030 --> 00:36:39,040 [JOHN] Right. 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:45,000 [ERIC] But, I mean, that is... I mean, look, these are all tools that can be used for, like, great things, like staying in touch with your family. 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:45,780 [JOHN] Yeah, sure. 00:36:45,780 --> 00:36:50,740 [ERIC] But group chats, at least in my experience, a lot of them tend towards entertainment. 00:36:50,740 --> 00:36:51,200 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:59,060 [ERIC] Right. Um, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it just really, you know, goes back to the medium is the message. 00:36:59,060 --> 00:36:59,280 [JOHN] Right. 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:05,660 [ERIC] Um, you know, and sort of changes the way that you, the way that you view that. Um, 00:37:05,660 --> 00:37:13,540 [ERIC] okay, I was just justifying away, but you asked a legitimate question. [chuckles] A legitimate question. So remind me your- 00:37:13,540 --> 00:37:19,720 [JOHN] No, yeah. I mean, the, the question was... It's just funny, the arc of it. Is like we started with bankruptcy. 00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:20,460 [ERIC] Mm-hmm. 00:37:20,460 --> 00:37:25,400 [JOHN] [chuckles] And there's a lot of good reasons to be in bankruptcy, but it's still bankruptcy, you know? 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:26,720 [ERIC] It is still bankruptcy. 00:37:26,720 --> 00:37:27,190 [JOHN] So what are we- 00:37:27,190 --> 00:37:27,190 [ERIC] Yes 00:37:27,190 --> 00:37:33,200 [JOHN] ... What's next? What are we gonna do? Are we gonna get out of bankruptcy, or are we just gonna stay in bankruptcy? 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,910 [ERIC] Okay, before I answer, can I, can I just have one more justification- 00:37:36,910 --> 00:37:36,940 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:37:36,940 --> 00:37:40,910 [ERIC] -since I'm on such a roll here? [chuckles] 00:37:40,910 --> 00:37:42,130 [JOHN] Sure. [chuckles] 00:37:42,130 --> 00:37:43,279 [ERIC] Thank you. Um- 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:48,280 [JOHN] [chuckles] I was gonna say, as your friend, sure. As your therapist, no. [chuckles] 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:48,940 [ERIC] Boundaries. 00:37:48,940 --> 00:37:49,740 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:37:49,740 --> 00:37:51,220 [ERIC] Boundaries. Well, I'm actually- 00:37:51,220 --> 00:37:51,600 [JOHN] No, I'm ready 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:53,000 [ERIC] ... This is, this is a question for you, actually. 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:53,060 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:37:53,060 --> 00:37:59,080 [ERIC] So one other thing I thought about as I was, as I was ruminating on this, 00:37:59,080 --> 00:37:59,840 [ERIC] is that 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:11,180 [ERIC] not only have we seen changes in the communication channels themselves, but 00:38:11,180 --> 00:38:19,500 [ERIC] communication in general has actually sort of converged on chat as the primary- 00:38:19,500 --> 00:38:19,720 [JOHN] Right 00:38:19,720 --> 00:38:27,390 [ERIC] ... interface. So, you know, and, and email is actually probably ironically the exception to that, right? 00:38:27,390 --> 00:38:27,420 [JOHN] Right. 00:38:27,420 --> 00:38:31,200 [ERIC] It has changed the least, um, in this regard. 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:32,280 [JOHN] Right. 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:39,120 [ERIC] Uh, but you have Slack or Teams, um, or HipChat. 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,219 [JOHN] Do you remember HipChat? [chuckles] 00:38:41,219 --> 00:38:42,349 [ERIC] I do. Purchased by Atlassian. 00:38:42,349 --> 00:38:43,219 [JOHN] Oh, RIP. 00:38:43,219 --> 00:38:44,788 [ERIC] Never to be seen again. [chuckles] 00:38:44,788 --> 00:38:46,800 [JOHN] Right. 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,440 [ERIC] Uh, which is chat- 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:50,040 [JOHN] Mm-hmm 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:54,980 [ERIC] ... you know, in a business context or, you know, a community that you join. You know, and that's not a new thing- 00:38:54,980 --> 00:38:54,990 [JOHN] Yeah 00:38:54,990 --> 00:38:57,140 [ERIC] ... right? Like IRC has been around for a long time. 00:38:57,140 --> 00:38:57,210 [JOHN] Like a Discord thing. 00:38:57,210 --> 00:38:58,190 [ERIC] Discord, exactly. 00:38:58,190 --> 00:38:58,400 [JOHN] Yeah. Right. 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:13,940 [ERIC] Um, you know, but, but in large part, right, like, you know, sort of HipChat and then Slack comes onto the scene and makes chat... It displaces email as the primary communication form factor- 00:39:13,940 --> 00:39:14,160 [JOHN] Right 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:22,520 [ERIC] ... um, you know, for work. And then, and also a lot of work happens over messages as well, actually. 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:23,080 [JOHN] Correct. 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:28,060 [ERIC] Um, and 00:39:28,060 --> 00:39:34,230 [ERIC] now, over the last couple of years, we use AI every day, you know, all day, every day. 00:39:34,230 --> 00:39:34,700 [JOHN] In the chat form factor. 00:39:34,700 --> 00:39:36,440 [ERIC] Right? In the chat form factor. 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:36,779 [JOHN] Right. 00:39:36,779 --> 00:39:38,980 [ERIC] [chuckles] And so 00:39:38,980 --> 00:39:44,080 [ERIC] I think part of it... Okay, this is- I promise this is my last justification. 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:44,560 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,640 [ERIC] Is just exhaustion with the form factor. 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:46,680 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:55,820 [ERIC] Right? Like, I don't wanna go type in- I don't wanna go interact with another chat, especially after using... I mean, 'cause I use AI pretty extensively- 00:39:55,820 --> 00:39:56,320 [JOHN] Right 00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:03,380 [ERIC] ... um, you know, throughout the day. And so, you know, it's like, okay, Slack and AI 00:40:03,380 --> 00:40:07,020 [ERIC] comprises a significant percentage of my day, and- 00:40:07,020 --> 00:40:07,600 [JOHN] Yes 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,300 [ERIC] ... I don't wanna go have more- I don't wanna have more- 00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:10,310 [JOHN] Right 00:40:10,310 --> 00:40:12,320 [ERIC] ... like, chat exchange. Um- 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:16,140 [JOHN] You know what people are doing around this? Other than- 00:40:16,140 --> 00:40:16,440 [ERIC] Other than- 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:17,240 [JOHN] I don't know 00:40:17,240 --> 00:40:20,529 [ERIC] ... giving Claude Bot access to their credit card. [chuckles] 00:40:20,529 --> 00:40:25,820 [JOHN] Right! Or their iMessages. People are using the audio feature- 00:40:25,820 --> 00:40:25,950 [ERIC] Yes 00:40:25,950 --> 00:40:26,160 [JOHN] ... for messages. 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:27,540 [ERIC] To send voice messages. 00:40:27,540 --> 00:40:28,360 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:28,410 [ERIC] Yeah. 00:40:28,410 --> 00:40:30,680 [JOHN] Yeah, like over chat. Right. 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:31,720 [ERIC] Right. You hit record- 00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:32,200 [JOHN] Yeah, yeah. Right 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:33,320 [ERIC] ... and then it sends an audio message. 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:34,240 [JOHN] Exactly. Audio message. 00:40:34,240 --> 00:40:34,270 [ERIC] Yep. 00:40:34,270 --> 00:40:34,560 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:34,960 [ERIC] Yep. 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:36,840 [JOHN] I think that's, 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:42,680 [JOHN] other than like, I don't know, just deciding you're gonna spend more time on text messaging, that's what people are doing- 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:42,870 [ERIC] Yes 00:40:42,870 --> 00:40:43,779 [JOHN] ... that I, that I've seen. 00:40:43,779 --> 00:40:44,540 [ERIC] Yeah. 00:40:44,540 --> 00:40:44,640 [JOHN] Um- 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:46,520 [ERIC] Although, in my experience- 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:46,529 [JOHN] Which is interesting 00:40:46,529 --> 00:40:53,360 [ERIC] ... that doesn't last super long. You do that for a little bit, and then I, I have, I have not seen that be a durable- 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:54,620 [JOHN] Interesting. 00:40:54,620 --> 00:40:55,800 [ERIC] I don't know. Have you? 00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,200 [JOHN] My wife uses it a lot. 00:40:58,200 --> 00:40:58,800 [ERIC] Ooh! 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,460 [JOHN] I use it very occasionally. 00:41:01,460 --> 00:41:05,920 [ERIC] Yeah, I use it very occasionally as well. Uh- 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,460 [JOHN] That, and they transcribe now. 00:41:08,460 --> 00:41:09,239 [ERIC] Oh, they do? 00:41:09,240 --> 00:41:09,300 [JOHN] Mm-hmm. 00:41:09,300 --> 00:41:11,310 [ERIC] That's interesting. Maybe I should try that- 00:41:11,310 --> 00:41:11,310 [JOHN] Yeah 00:41:11,310 --> 00:41:14,580 [ERIC] ... as part of my Chapter 11 reorganization. 00:41:14,580 --> 00:41:14,640 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,040 [ERIC] Which I need to address the actual question. [chuckles] 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:18,440 [JOHN] The bankruptcy. [chuckles] 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,340 [ERIC] I need to address the bankruptcy. So 00:41:22,340 --> 00:41:29,400 [ERIC] I, I did a lot of self-reflection as part of this bankruptcy exercise, 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:30,880 [ERIC] and 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,360 [ERIC] one of the things I realized is that 00:41:34,420 --> 00:41:48,400 [ERIC] I can complain... Well, uh, two things I realized: I can complain about the form factor and, you know, the challenges with the, how primitive the tool is, and the fact that I don't like that Apple has- 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:48,930 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:41:48,930 --> 00:41:51,380 [ERIC] ... you know, made it easier to spray- 00:41:51,380 --> 00:41:51,430 [JOHN] Right 00:41:51,430 --> 00:41:52,800 [ERIC] ... confetti than to- 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:53,050 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:41:53,050 --> 00:41:54,860 [ERIC] ... you know, have a meaningful- 00:41:54,860 --> 00:41:54,870 [JOHN] Right 00:41:54,870 --> 00:41:56,200 [ERIC] ... asynchronous conversation. 00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:57,120 [JOHN] Right. 00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:01,680 [ERIC] But that's the, that's the world we live in. 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:02,920 [JOHN] Right. 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:07,790 [ERIC] And I need to, I need to adapt, right? I need to figure out new systems for that. 00:42:07,790 --> 00:42:07,790 [JOHN] Sure. 00:42:07,790 --> 00:42:09,100 [ERIC] And I just hadn't done that- 00:42:09,100 --> 00:42:09,480 [JOHN] Yeah 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,600 [ERIC] ... uh, which is very un-Merlin Mann-esque, right? 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:12,279 [JOHN] I know, yeah. 00:42:12,279 --> 00:42:14,040 [ERIC] Um, 00:42:14,100 --> 00:42:17,239 [ERIC] you know, so I'm sorry, Merlin. As a disciple, I did not- 00:42:17,240 --> 00:42:17,550 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:42:17,550 --> 00:42:20,619 [ERIC] ... you know, I'm way late. I had to go- I had to declare bankruptcy- 00:42:20,620 --> 00:42:20,880 [JOHN] Mm 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:22,620 [ERIC] ... you know, to get to that point. 00:42:22,620 --> 00:42:25,590 [JOHN] So did he, with text messages, apparently. [chuckles] 00:42:25,590 --> 00:42:41,168 [ERIC] Apparently, he did. [chuckles] So I think that's, that's just a good realization for me, that-... you know, hey, okay, yeah, there's all these factors, but in reality, this is modern communication. 00:42:41,168 --> 00:42:41,808 [JOHN] Right. 00:42:41,808 --> 00:42:46,207 [ERIC] And you can sort of either choose to be a Luddite and, you know- 00:42:46,208 --> 00:42:46,307 [JOHN] Right 00:42:46,308 --> 00:42:55,568 [ERIC] ... eschew, like, the dominant way that you're gonna interact with other people digitally, or you can figure out, you know, 00:42:55,628 --> 00:42:56,108 [ERIC] how to- 00:42:56,108 --> 00:42:56,348 [JOHN] Yeah 00:42:56,348 --> 00:42:57,888 [ERIC] ... you know, how to approach it in a way that works for you. 00:42:57,888 --> 00:43:01,528 [JOHN] I'd love to have a professional on the show- 00:43:01,528 --> 00:43:01,718 [ERIC] Hmm 00:43:01,718 --> 00:43:02,468 [JOHN] ... that's like- 00:43:02,468 --> 00:43:03,168 [ERIC] To analyze me? 00:43:03,168 --> 00:43:07,928 [JOHN] I don't- [laughing] 00:43:07,988 --> 00:43:11,568 [ERIC] You're paying for that, by the way. [chuckles] 00:43:11,568 --> 00:43:15,708 [JOHN] No, somebody that's, like, in, um, like, PR or media- 00:43:15,708 --> 00:43:15,868 [ERIC] Yeah 00:43:15,868 --> 00:43:20,428 [JOHN] ... that truly gets, like, thousands of text messages a week or something. 00:43:20,428 --> 00:43:20,848 [ERIC] Yeah. 00:43:20,848 --> 00:43:24,888 [JOHN] And actually, like, talk to them about what they do. I think that'd be really interesting. 00:43:24,888 --> 00:43:28,208 [ERIC] That would be really interesting because 00:43:28,208 --> 00:43:33,938 [ERIC] the other thing is that- [clears throat] ... if you have notifications on, it's super distracting because of- 00:43:33,938 --> 00:43:33,938 [JOHN] Of course 00:43:33,938 --> 00:43:35,368 [ERIC] ... how many messages that come through. 00:43:35,368 --> 00:43:35,598 [JOHN] Right. 00:43:35,598 --> 00:43:36,728 [ERIC] Right? And it makes it hard- 00:43:36,728 --> 00:43:36,738 [JOHN] Right 00:43:36,738 --> 00:43:40,708 [ERIC] ... to do, you know, it makes it... Th- this is the Cal Newport deep work thing. 00:43:40,708 --> 00:43:41,548 [JOHN] Right. 00:43:41,548 --> 00:43:43,438 [ERIC] Do you, did you notice how subtly I just- 00:43:43,438 --> 00:43:43,698 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:43:43,698 --> 00:43:47,058 [ERIC] ... went back to justification? This is why we need a psychologist- 00:43:47,058 --> 00:43:47,178 [JOHN] Right [chuckles] 00:43:47,178 --> 00:43:48,128 [ERIC] ... to analyze me. 00:43:48,128 --> 00:43:52,927 [JOHN] No, uh, yeah. I mean, maybe, but I was, I was thinking... But think about somebody 00:43:52,928 --> 00:43:55,988 [JOHN] in, um, you know, in, like, a PR role or like- 00:43:55,988 --> 00:43:57,368 [ERIC] Yeah, or a recruiter. 00:43:57,368 --> 00:43:58,968 [JOHN] Recruiter, that would be a great one. 00:43:58,968 --> 00:44:00,408 [ERIC] Totally. 00:44:00,408 --> 00:44:00,628 [JOHN] Um- 00:44:00,628 --> 00:44:04,218 [ERIC] It's gotta be horrible because of how bad the tooling is. 00:44:04,218 --> 00:44:05,488 [JOHN] Yeah. Right. Right. 00:44:05,488 --> 00:44:06,488 [ERIC] It's gotta be absolutely horrible. 00:44:06,488 --> 00:44:15,208 [JOHN] I'd just be so interested to, like, know, 'cause surely they probably have some sort of system, and I bet it's really interesting, like, how... And I bet it's varied between people- 00:44:15,208 --> 00:44:15,538 [ERIC] Totally 00:44:15,538 --> 00:44:16,188 [JOHN] ... about what they do. 00:44:16,188 --> 00:44:21,308 [ERIC] Totally. That's interesting. Okay, I'll think about that. Um, 00:44:21,308 --> 00:44:28,628 [ERIC] the- so that, that's one thing, is that, you know, I, I need... I clearly have not set up the systems- 00:44:28,628 --> 00:44:29,028 [JOHN] Right 00:44:29,028 --> 00:44:31,188 [ERIC] ... that I need to for myself- 00:44:31,188 --> 00:44:31,808 [JOHN] Right 00:44:31,808 --> 00:44:36,578 [ERIC] ... in order to, you know, in order to thrive in this, you know- 00:44:36,578 --> 00:44:36,678 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:44:36,678 --> 00:44:38,287 [ERIC] ... age of ubiquitous- 00:44:38,288 --> 00:44:38,588 [JOHN] Right 00:44:38,588 --> 00:44:39,968 [ERIC] ... [chuckles] ubiquitous chat. 00:44:39,968 --> 00:44:55,248 [JOHN] Well, well, I think, I think yes, in that... I mean, you have it, and you have, like, 'cause I think what a lot of people do is your, your s- your problem is more visible 'cause you leave them unread. What a lot of people do is [chuckles] read them and just forget. 00:44:55,308 --> 00:44:55,838 [ERIC] That's true. 00:44:55,838 --> 00:44:57,868 [JOHN] It's just not visible that it's a problem. 00:44:57,868 --> 00:44:58,388 [ERIC] That is true. 00:44:58,388 --> 00:45:00,508 [JOHN] So I definitely do that sometimes, for sure. 00:45:00,508 --> 00:45:00,868 [ERIC] Yeah, yeah. 00:45:00,868 --> 00:45:06,328 [JOHN] Your problem is, is in some ways you're more disciplined 'cause you actually have some kind of, like, bifurcation between, like- 00:45:06,328 --> 00:45:08,267 [ERIC] That is true. That is actually true. 00:45:08,268 --> 00:45:08,948 [JOHN] But- 00:45:08,948 --> 00:45:10,608 [ERIC] And 00:45:10,608 --> 00:45:17,968 [ERIC] yes, that is actually true, which I have a note about that in a second. But I think the bigger, I think the bigger 00:45:17,968 --> 00:45:20,868 [ERIC] realization for me 00:45:20,868 --> 00:45:23,368 [ERIC] was that 00:45:23,368 --> 00:45:28,368 [ERIC] if you asked me, "Hey, do you, you know, try to keep up with people you care about?- 00:45:28,368 --> 00:45:28,458 [JOHN] Hmm. 00:45:28,458 --> 00:45:30,008 [ERIC] ... Is that something you w- like- 00:45:30,008 --> 00:45:30,138 [JOHN] Right 00:45:30,138 --> 00:45:31,168 [ERIC] ... you desire to do?" 00:45:31,168 --> 00:45:32,008 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:45:32,008 --> 00:45:33,038 [ERIC] I would absolutely- 00:45:33,038 --> 00:45:33,038 [JOHN] Of course 00:45:33,038 --> 00:45:33,948 [ERIC] ... say, "Yeah." 00:45:33,948 --> 00:45:34,118 [JOHN] Right. 00:45:34,118 --> 00:45:42,468 [ERIC] "Yeah, of course, I wanna do that," right? But like so many things in our lives, my actual behavior 00:45:42,468 --> 00:45:47,138 [ERIC] would, you know, would suggest that buried in- 00:45:47,138 --> 00:45:47,738 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:45:47,738 --> 00:45:48,598 [ERIC] ... those 247- 00:45:48,598 --> 00:45:49,468 [JOHN] 247 00:45:49,468 --> 00:45:55,008 [ERIC] ... unread messages, that there are messages from friends and family that are months old. 00:45:55,008 --> 00:45:55,468 [JOHN] Sure. 00:45:55,468 --> 00:46:03,128 [ERIC] You know, that if I'm objective about it, you know, it's like, that's, not responding to that- 00:46:03,128 --> 00:46:03,408 [JOHN] Right 00:46:03,408 --> 00:46:05,488 [ERIC] ... is not being a good friend, you know? 00:46:05,488 --> 00:46:05,508 [JOHN] Sure. Yeah. 00:46:05,508 --> 00:46:06,728 [ERIC] Or not being a good- 00:46:06,728 --> 00:46:06,738 [JOHN] Right 00:46:06,738 --> 00:46:08,448 [ERIC] ... you know, sibling- 00:46:08,448 --> 00:46:08,458 [JOHN] Right 00:46:08,458 --> 00:46:08,968 [ERIC] ... or cousin- 00:46:08,968 --> 00:46:09,288 [JOHN] Yeah 00:46:09,288 --> 00:46:09,668 [ERIC] ... or- 00:46:09,668 --> 00:46:10,008 [JOHN] Right 00:46:10,008 --> 00:46:10,848 [ERIC] ... you know, whatever. 00:46:10,848 --> 00:46:11,368 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:46:11,368 --> 00:46:12,788 [ERIC] And 00:46:12,788 --> 00:46:14,498 [ERIC] that was pretty convicting for me- 00:46:14,498 --> 00:46:14,498 [JOHN] Yeah 00:46:14,498 --> 00:46:15,308 [ERIC] ... to think about that. 00:46:15,308 --> 00:46:15,448 [JOHN] That's cool. 00:46:15,448 --> 00:46:21,928 [ERIC] Because it's easy for me to just justify, like, "Oh, I don't like this," or, "I'm busy," or- 00:46:21,928 --> 00:46:21,938 [JOHN] Right 00:46:21,938 --> 00:46:28,828 [ERIC] ... You know what I mean? Another thing I thought about is, like, okay, well, I have kids, and, like, when I have margin, I've just spent a lot more time like building stuff, you know? 00:46:28,828 --> 00:46:28,938 [JOHN] Sure. 00:46:28,938 --> 00:46:29,948 [ERIC] Especially with AI. 00:46:29,948 --> 00:46:30,688 [JOHN] Right. Right. 00:46:30,688 --> 00:46:32,758 [ERIC] You know, and I really enjoy that, you know? 00:46:32,758 --> 00:46:32,768 [JOHN] Sure. 00:46:32,768 --> 00:46:35,388 [ERIC] And so I'm using the time margin that I have differently. 00:46:35,388 --> 00:46:35,478 [JOHN] Right. 00:46:35,478 --> 00:46:43,468 [ERIC] And, you know, all those things are true, but at the end of the day, you know, it's like, okay, well, what is... What do you value? And- 00:46:43,468 --> 00:46:43,658 [JOHN] Right 00:46:43,658 --> 00:46:45,888 [ERIC] ... you will behave according to what you value. 00:46:45,888 --> 00:46:46,228 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:46:46,228 --> 00:46:46,438 [ERIC] You know? 00:46:46,438 --> 00:46:46,488 [JOHN] Sure. 00:46:46,488 --> 00:46:47,148 [ERIC] That will actually- 00:46:47,148 --> 00:46:47,348 [JOHN] Yeah 00:46:47,348 --> 00:46:49,228 [ERIC] ... that'll actually reveal your value system. 00:46:49,228 --> 00:46:49,988 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:46:49,988 --> 00:46:59,188 [ERIC] And so I think that was another thing where I, you know, just to, I, I just sort of let myself believe that, oh, no, I, I actually do wanna keep up with people that I care about. And it's like- 00:46:59,188 --> 00:46:59,198 [JOHN] Right 00:46:59,198 --> 00:47:00,528 [ERIC] ... well, you're not doing that. 00:47:00,528 --> 00:47:01,217 [JOHN] [chuckles] Right. 00:47:01,217 --> 00:47:07,168 [ERIC] And the fact that you don't like the medium is not a good excuse for that. [laughing] Right? 00:47:07,168 --> 00:47:07,988 [JOHN] Right. Yeah. 00:47:07,988 --> 00:47:09,548 [ERIC] Um, 00:47:09,548 --> 00:47:12,068 [ERIC] so all that to say, there is a happy ending here. 00:47:12,068 --> 00:47:12,728 [JOHN] Okay. 00:47:12,728 --> 00:47:17,608 [ERIC] I, um, I sat down a couple days ago- 00:47:17,608 --> 00:47:18,378 [JOHN] Okay 00:47:18,378 --> 00:47:20,407 [ERIC] ... on my computer because the phone- 00:47:20,408 --> 00:47:20,888 [JOHN] Oh, sure 00:47:20,888 --> 00:47:21,668 [ERIC] ... you know, the- 00:47:21,668 --> 00:47:21,708 [JOHN] Yeah 00:47:21,708 --> 00:47:33,467 [ERIC] ... the, the app on the phone is horrible. Uh, but I sat down on the computer, and to your point about keeping those messages unread, because you can now filter to unreads- 00:47:33,468 --> 00:47:33,768 [JOHN] Hmm 00:47:33,768 --> 00:47:36,318 [ERIC] ... I filtered to the unread messages. 00:47:36,318 --> 00:47:37,348 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:47:37,348 --> 00:47:41,978 [ERIC] And I went back and paid off all of my text message- 00:47:41,978 --> 00:47:41,998 [JOHN] Nice [chuckles] 00:47:41,998 --> 00:47:43,728 [ERIC] ... debt, uh, which felt really great. 00:47:43,728 --> 00:47:44,328 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:47:44,328 --> 00:47:48,588 [ERIC] It felt really great. It, it was still so painful because 00:47:48,588 --> 00:47:54,048 [ERIC] if you filter to unreads and then you, like, respond to a message, it still stays in the list as- 00:47:54,048 --> 00:47:54,717 [JOHN] [laughing] 00:47:54,717 --> 00:47:56,128 [ERIC] ... read, even though- 00:47:56,128 --> 00:47:56,138 [JOHN] Oh 00:47:56,138 --> 00:47:57,978 [ERIC] ... you're filtered down to unreads, and so you have to- 00:47:57,978 --> 00:47:57,978 [JOHN] Snap, snap 00:47:57,978 --> 00:47:59,048 [ERIC] ... like toggle on, toggle off. 00:47:59,048 --> 00:47:59,347 [JOHN] Mm-hmm. 00:47:59,348 --> 00:48:01,908 [ERIC] So it's still a horrible interface- 00:48:01,908 --> 00:48:02,038 [JOHN] Yep 00:48:02,038 --> 00:48:04,008 [ERIC] ... which made me upset, but- 00:48:04,008 --> 00:48:04,018 [JOHN] Yeah 00:48:04,018 --> 00:48:06,838 [ERIC] ... I got over justifying it and paid it off. 00:48:06,838 --> 00:48:06,888 [JOHN] Well- 00:48:06,888 --> 00:48:09,008 [ERIC] Actually, let's see. You wanna see? 00:48:09,008 --> 00:48:09,828 [JOHN] Let's- 00:48:09,828 --> 00:48:11,418 [ERIC] How, how many unread messages do you think I have right now? 00:48:11,418 --> 00:48:15,848 [JOHN] I wanna see a live view now. What did you get down to? 00:48:15,848 --> 00:48:17,407 [ERIC] I got down to three. 00:48:17,408 --> 00:48:17,968 [JOHN] Okay. 00:48:17,968 --> 00:48:28,748 [ERIC] And I left it at three because I needed to process those into... Actually, I'll tell you very specifically. I needed to process one into, like, setting a meeting on my calendar. 00:48:28,748 --> 00:48:28,988 [JOHN] Okay. 00:48:28,988 --> 00:48:29,608 [ERIC] So that, like- 00:48:29,608 --> 00:48:29,618 [JOHN] Right 00:48:29,618 --> 00:48:32,368 [ERIC] ... that was a reminder to call someone, and I needed to block the time off. 00:48:32,368 --> 00:48:33,407 [JOHN] Right. 00:48:33,408 --> 00:48:39,312 [ERIC] The other one was to set up a-... to schedule a dentist appointment? 00:48:39,312 --> 00:48:39,892 [JOHN] Mm. 00:48:39,892 --> 00:48:40,551 [ERIC] Because- 00:48:40,551 --> 00:48:40,692 [JOHN] Sure 00:48:40,692 --> 00:48:45,761 [ERIC] ... to our point earlier, how do you talk with your dentist now? It's through text message- 00:48:45,761 --> 00:48:46,051 [JOHN] Yep 00:48:46,051 --> 00:48:47,531 [ERIC] ... you know? [clears throat] 00:48:47,531 --> 00:48:48,402 [JOHN] Yep. 00:48:48,402 --> 00:48:51,270 [ERIC] And then the third was to pick up a chainsaw and a blower- 00:48:51,272 --> 00:48:52,051 [JOHN] [chuckles] Which you did 00:48:52,051 --> 00:48:53,732 [ERIC] ... from the repair shop, which I did- 00:48:53,732 --> 00:48:53,741 [JOHN] Yep 00:48:53,741 --> 00:48:55,422 [ERIC] ... on the way over to this recording- 00:48:55,422 --> 00:48:55,422 [JOHN] Yep 00:48:55,422 --> 00:48:58,511 [ERIC] ... today. And so those were things that were, like, very transactional- 00:48:58,511 --> 00:48:58,522 [JOHN] Sure 00:48:58,522 --> 00:48:59,882 [ERIC] ... and I was gonna translate those into like- 00:48:59,882 --> 00:48:59,882 [JOHN] Right 00:48:59,882 --> 00:49:00,892 [ERIC] ... a reminder or- 00:49:00,892 --> 00:49:01,092 [JOHN] Yeah 00:49:01,092 --> 00:49:04,051 [ERIC] ... Linear issue or something of that nature. [chuckles] So I got- 00:49:04,051 --> 00:49:06,152 [JOHN] Do you have a personal Linear? 00:49:06,152 --> 00:49:07,872 [ERIC] I do. I... Oh, yeah. 00:49:07,872 --> 00:49:08,231 [JOHN] Really? 00:49:08,232 --> 00:49:08,792 [ERIC] Oh, I definitely have a personal Linear. 00:49:08,792 --> 00:49:11,412 [JOHN] Okay, that's a, that's a, that's a separate- 00:49:11,412 --> 00:49:11,491 [ERIC] Yes 00:49:11,491 --> 00:49:13,332 [JOHN] ... therapy show. I mean- [chuckles] 00:49:13,332 --> 00:49:16,531 [ERIC] Toying with the idea of moving to Reminders for personal stuff- 00:49:16,531 --> 00:49:16,741 [JOHN] Yeah 00:49:16,741 --> 00:49:18,272 [ERIC] ... because it integrates with the Apple ecosystem- 00:49:18,272 --> 00:49:18,542 [JOHN] That's what I did 00:49:18,542 --> 00:49:19,312 [ERIC] ... really well. 00:49:19,312 --> 00:49:20,372 [JOHN] I did that, yeah. 00:49:20,372 --> 00:49:22,491 [ERIC] Um, but Linear is just so great. 00:49:22,491 --> 00:49:23,191 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:49:23,192 --> 00:49:25,092 [ERIC] Um, but yes, I do have a personal Linear. 00:49:25,092 --> 00:49:25,471 [JOHN] I love that. 00:49:25,471 --> 00:49:26,732 [ERIC] That'll tell you something about me. 00:49:26,732 --> 00:49:27,132 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:49:27,132 --> 00:49:29,491 [ERIC] That's why my friend was so shocked. 00:49:29,491 --> 00:49:30,232 [JOHN] Sure. 00:49:30,232 --> 00:49:30,332 [ERIC] Right? 00:49:30,332 --> 00:49:30,932 [JOHN] That makes sense. 00:49:30,932 --> 00:49:32,712 [ERIC] If you have a personal Linear- 00:49:32,712 --> 00:49:33,022 [JOHN] You have a personal Linear- 00:49:33,022 --> 00:49:33,942 [ERIC] ... like, you're a certain type 00:49:33,942 --> 00:49:35,412 [JOHN] ... which is a project management tool- 00:49:35,412 --> 00:49:35,702 [ERIC] Yes 00:49:35,702 --> 00:49:36,212 [JOHN] ... if you don't know. 00:49:36,212 --> 00:49:38,212 [ERIC] Yes, Linear is a project management tool. 00:49:38,212 --> 00:49:38,292 [JOHN] Right. Yeah. 00:49:38,292 --> 00:49:40,612 [ERIC] Um, the best project management tool. 00:49:40,612 --> 00:49:42,252 [JOHN] Yeah, agreed. 00:49:42,252 --> 00:49:44,272 [ERIC] Uh, but okay, so what's your guess? 00:49:44,272 --> 00:49:47,612 [JOHN] Oh, okay. Count. Um, 00:49:47,612 --> 00:49:48,732 [JOHN] seven? 00:49:48,732 --> 00:49:50,772 [ERIC] Okay. I don't know, actually. 00:49:50,772 --> 00:49:50,801 [JOHN] You don't know. 00:49:50,801 --> 00:49:53,152 [ERIC] And my phone has been buzzing, so I really don't know. 00:49:53,152 --> 00:49:53,312 [JOHN] Okay. 00:49:53,312 --> 00:49:53,852 [ERIC] Okay, let's see here. 00:49:53,852 --> 00:49:56,572 [JOHN] I'm gonna check mine, too. 00:49:59,072 --> 00:50:00,531 [JOHN] Eight! 00:50:00,531 --> 00:50:05,991 [JOHN] Oh, I was close. Oh, I should have made you guess. Darn. 00:50:05,991 --> 00:50:07,192 [ERIC] Wait, I didn't hear yours. 00:50:07,192 --> 00:50:08,172 [JOHN] Oh, mine's- 00:50:08,172 --> 00:50:09,312 [ERIC] Uh, don't tell me. I'm gonna guess. 00:50:09,312 --> 00:50:12,602 [JOHN] Oh, on mine? I don't have badges turned on, but I can count. 00:50:12,602 --> 00:50:12,632 [ERIC] Uh, okay. 00:50:12,632 --> 00:50:15,511 [JOHN] It's okay. There's not that many. You should guess. 00:50:15,511 --> 00:50:17,172 [ERIC] Four. 00:50:17,172 --> 00:50:19,991 [JOHN] Okay. 00:50:20,051 --> 00:50:22,392 [JOHN] Um... 00:50:22,392 --> 00:50:23,172 [ERIC] I still need to- 00:50:23,172 --> 00:50:23,202 [JOHN] Two. 00:50:23,202 --> 00:50:24,482 [ERIC] I n- oh, okay. I need to turn badges on. 00:50:24,482 --> 00:50:25,832 [JOHN] But I checked it before we started. 00:50:25,832 --> 00:50:28,491 [ERIC] Although, actually, it's... Okay, it's actually- 00:50:28,491 --> 00:50:32,412 [JOHN] Oh, no, I just marked [chuckles] I just marked them. I'm not gonna remember to respond to those people- 00:50:32,412 --> 00:50:33,322 [ERIC] Mm 00:50:33,322 --> 00:50:34,471 [JOHN] ... 'cause I opened them. 00:50:34,471 --> 00:50:35,352 [ERIC] Yeah, yeah. 00:50:35,352 --> 00:50:35,471 [JOHN] Whoops. 00:50:35,471 --> 00:50:40,272 [ERIC] It's actually... Okay, I take that back. It's actually 11- 00:50:40,272 --> 00:50:40,281 [JOHN] Mm 00:50:40,281 --> 00:50:43,392 [ERIC] ... because 00:50:43,392 --> 00:50:49,632 [ERIC] I do not message with my wife in Apple Messages. I use a completely separate app- 00:50:49,632 --> 00:50:50,212 [JOHN] Okay 00:50:50,212 --> 00:50:51,031 [ERIC] ... Signal. 00:50:51,031 --> 00:50:52,672 [JOHN] Mm-hmm. 00:50:52,672 --> 00:50:55,092 [ERIC] Um, you know, which they're whatever. There's like Signal- 00:50:55,092 --> 00:50:55,491 [JOHN] Right 00:50:55,491 --> 00:50:56,502 [ERIC] ... different, you know- 00:50:56,502 --> 00:50:56,502 [JOHN] Right 00:50:56,502 --> 00:50:58,281 [ERIC] ... different messaging apps to choose out there. 00:50:58,281 --> 00:50:59,491 [JOHN] Yeah, yeah. Right. 00:50:59,491 --> 00:51:02,551 [ERIC] But that was... I, I had to do that because- 00:51:02,551 --> 00:51:03,102 [JOHN] Oh, because you just, like, would never see a stuff 00:51:03,102 --> 00:51:05,432 [ERIC] ... because of my bankruptcy, it would get, like, lost in the stream- 00:51:05,432 --> 00:51:05,502 [JOHN] Mm-hmm 00:51:05,502 --> 00:51:07,502 [ERIC] ... and there wasn't, you know, the unread stuff was horrible. 00:51:07,502 --> 00:51:07,511 [JOHN] Right. 00:51:07,511 --> 00:51:11,051 [ERIC] And so I was just like: Okay, I'm just going to literally use a completely separate app- 00:51:11,051 --> 00:51:11,241 [JOHN] Yeah 00:51:11,241 --> 00:51:15,192 [ERIC] ... in order to, like, have... Because that's import- You know, it's like, okay, if- 00:51:15,192 --> 00:51:16,352 [JOHN] Yeah 00:51:16,352 --> 00:51:20,102 [ERIC] ... someone's running late or the child is going to the hospital- 00:51:20,102 --> 00:51:20,102 [JOHN] Right 00:51:20,102 --> 00:51:23,772 [ERIC] ... or something, like, you don't wanna get lost in the 247. 00:51:23,772 --> 00:51:27,592 [JOHN] No. You... They, they did add, you can pin certain people- 00:51:27,592 --> 00:51:27,971 [ERIC] Yes, you can 00:51:27,971 --> 00:51:28,592 [JOHN] ... like the top. 00:51:28,592 --> 00:51:30,872 [ERIC] And I think you can have, like, VIPs and do some other stuff like that. 00:51:30,872 --> 00:51:31,752 [JOHN] Yeah, I don't know how to do that- 00:51:31,752 --> 00:51:31,781 [ERIC] Yeah 00:51:31,781 --> 00:51:32,852 [JOHN] ... but I believe you. 00:51:32,852 --> 00:51:35,312 [ERIC] Yeah. There you go. So 11, effectively. 00:51:35,312 --> 00:51:36,672 [JOHN] All right. Good. 00:51:36,672 --> 00:51:38,132 [ERIC] Yeah. I feel great about that. 00:51:38,132 --> 00:51:38,912 [JOHN] Yeah. 00:51:38,912 --> 00:51:40,152 [ERIC] I wonder what Merlin Mann- 00:51:40,152 --> 00:51:40,221 [JOHN] I feel great 00:51:40,221 --> 00:51:43,192 [ERIC] ... I wonder what Merlin Mann's count is currently. [chuckles] 00:51:43,192 --> 00:51:45,092 [JOHN] We can ask him in the Raycast email. 00:51:45,092 --> 00:51:45,672 [ERIC] [chuckles] 00:51:45,672 --> 00:51:46,891 [JOHN] And also, maybe I- 00:51:46,892 --> 00:51:47,912 [ERIC] Can you send me a screenshot? 00:51:47,912 --> 00:51:50,801 [JOHN] Maybe I'll try to ping him on X and ask him. We should. 00:51:50,801 --> 00:51:52,612 [ERIC] Which, you know, he's not gonna respond. 00:51:52,612 --> 00:51:55,692 [JOHN] I, I don't know. I mean, that's an old enough screenshot- 00:51:55,692 --> 00:51:56,011 [ERIC] Mm-hmm 00:51:56,011 --> 00:51:58,542 [JOHN] ... where maybe he might. 00:51:58,542 --> 00:52:00,232 [ERIC] Mm-hmm. Um, 00:52:00,312 --> 00:52:03,132 [ERIC] all right. Well, that was a journey. 00:52:03,132 --> 00:52:03,432 [JOHN] [chuckles] 00:52:03,432 --> 00:52:06,511 [ERIC] I went through the valley of text message bankruptcy. I reorganized- 00:52:06,511 --> 00:52:06,592 [JOHN] Right 00:52:06,592 --> 00:52:08,152 [ERIC] ... and I emerged on the other side. 00:52:08,152 --> 00:52:09,051 [JOHN] Right. 00:52:09,051 --> 00:52:09,332 [ERIC] Uh- 00:52:09,332 --> 00:52:09,872 [JOHN] Victorious. 00:52:09,872 --> 00:52:21,852 [ERIC] Victorious. So, uh, I think that's it for today's show. Thank you to everyone for listening, and we will catch you on the next one.