The new superpower is old: speed, craft, and AI

00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:18,820 [Eric] [upbeat music] Welcome back to the Token Intelligence Show, where John and I are trying to figure out AI and life, and you get to follow along with our successes [laughs] 00:00:18,820 --> 00:00:19,220 [John] [laughs] 00:00:19,220 --> 00:00:23,880 [Eric] And failures. Do we have more successes or failures? 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:25,260 [John] I mean, our startup's going pretty well. [laughs] 00:00:25,260 --> 00:00:27,910 [Eric] Our startup is going well. We do need to finish the- 00:00:27,910 --> 00:00:29,220 [John] It has half a website. 00:00:29,220 --> 00:00:29,540 [Eric] It has- [laughs] 00:00:29,540 --> 00:00:30,580 [John] Three-fourths of a website. 00:00:30,580 --> 00:00:33,180 [Eric] Three-fourths of a website. We'll finish that in an upcoming- 00:00:33,180 --> 00:00:33,210 [John] Yeah 00:00:33,210 --> 00:00:33,740 [Eric] ... episode. 00:00:33,740 --> 00:00:34,300 [John] Yeah. 00:00:34,300 --> 00:00:46,000 [Eric] Uh, okay. I have been thinking a lot about different skill sets and the required skill sets, especially in this new age of AI that we live in. 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:47,040 [John] Yes. 00:00:47,040 --> 00:01:04,420 [Eric] So first of all, I wanted to get your perspective on the... I'll make a statement here. So being fast at your work and being really good at your work is a superpower. And what I mean by that is- 00:01:04,420 --> 00:01:05,620 [John] It always has been. 00:01:05,620 --> 00:01:06,590 [Eric] It always has been. 00:01:06,590 --> 00:01:06,640 [John] Yeah. 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:14,290 [Eric] It always has been. And so I'll break that down. Actually, I'm interested in your definition of this, so I'll, I'll give my definition. 00:01:14,290 --> 00:01:14,790 [John] I have a great example- 00:01:14,790 --> 00:01:14,790 [Eric] Okay 00:01:14,790 --> 00:01:16,180 [John] ... of this, actually. 00:01:16,180 --> 00:01:34,950 [Eric] So being fast is... Being fast at work is great, like, because you can get a lot of stuff done in a short amount of time. That's really, you know, that's basic, right? But then you have this flip side, actually, which we talked about on our first episode and which is, uh, mentioned here in our beloved quote from The Inner Ring. 00:01:34,950 --> 00:01:35,610 [John] Yeah. 00:01:35,610 --> 00:01:37,330 [Eric] "A sound craftsman," right? 00:01:37,330 --> 00:01:37,360 [John] Mm-hmm. 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:45,820 [Eric] And so, you know, throughout history, there's sort of been this, um, this need for people who are, you know, who's the best or who's really- 00:01:45,820 --> 00:01:45,830 [John] Mm-hmm 00:01:45,830 --> 00:01:46,860 [Eric] ... really good at this, right? 00:01:46,860 --> 00:01:48,020 [John] Right. 00:01:48,020 --> 00:01:59,570 [Eric] And oftentimes, the people who are really, really good at something, it can take them a lot of time to produce something of extremely high quality, right? 00:01:59,570 --> 00:01:59,870 [John] Yeah. Sure. 00:01:59,870 --> 00:02:00,620 [Eric] Which makes total sense, right? 00:02:00,620 --> 00:02:01,780 [John] Yeah. 00:02:01,780 --> 00:02:05,380 [Eric] When you combine those two things, it really does feel like a superpower. 00:02:05,380 --> 00:02:05,520 [John] Mm-hmm. 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:11,720 [Eric] And so one of the examples that came to mind as I was thinking through this was laying tile. 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:12,600 [John] Okay. 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,100 [Eric] Right? So have you ever laid tile? 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:17,820 [John] I've ripped up [laughs] a lot of tile. 00:02:17,820 --> 00:02:18,380 [Eric] Okay. 00:02:18,380 --> 00:02:23,100 [John] But I, I don't know that I've... I don't know that I've actually laid tile, though. 00:02:23,100 --> 00:02:30,240 [Eric] Well, it... To me, it was a very visceral, it was a very visceral realization of this, because I haven't laid tile a ton. 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:31,640 [John] Are you fast and good at laying tile? 00:02:31,640 --> 00:02:32,200 [Eric] No, I'm not. 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:32,720 [John] [laughs] Okay. 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:39,540 [Eric] Um, I can be okay at laying tile, but it takes me a really long time. 00:02:39,540 --> 00:02:40,460 [John] Yeah. That makes sense. 00:02:40,460 --> 00:02:46,609 [Eric] Right? And so, um, but then if you see a professional tire, tile layer- 00:02:46,609 --> 00:02:46,609 [John] Mm 00:02:46,609 --> 00:02:48,880 [Eric] ... lay tile, especially in a complex pattern- 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:49,220 [John] Right 00:02:49,220 --> 00:02:50,950 [Eric] ... 'cause it, you, it's, it's really tricky. 00:02:50,950 --> 00:02:51,840 [John] Like herring bone? 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,000 [Eric] Her- Ooh, yes. Herring bone. Wow. 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:55,020 [John] [laughs] 00:02:55,020 --> 00:02:56,180 [Eric] Houndstooth. 00:02:56,180 --> 00:02:56,520 [John] Oh, yeah. 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:56,540 [Eric] Um- 00:02:56,540 --> 00:02:58,600 [John] That's, yeah. Yeah. 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,660 [Eric] What's tricky also, I laid tile in a really old house, and so the room- 00:03:01,660 --> 00:03:01,670 [John] Mm 00:03:01,670 --> 00:03:03,320 [Eric] ... wasn't square. And that, that is- 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:05,260 [John] I feel like that's the first rule of laying tile is- 00:03:05,260 --> 00:03:05,450 [Eric] Yes 00:03:05,450 --> 00:03:06,750 [John] ... to get everything level and square. 00:03:06,750 --> 00:03:07,260 [Eric] Yes, exactly. 00:03:07,260 --> 00:03:07,620 [John] Yeah. 00:03:07,620 --> 00:03:10,220 [Eric] Uh, not necessarily always possible in an old house. 00:03:10,220 --> 00:03:11,740 [John] True. 00:03:11,740 --> 00:03:20,480 [Eric] But when you see someone do that, do an unbelievable job at that and do it really fast, you're just kinda like, "That's crazy." 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:20,680 [John] Right. 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:22,940 [Eric] You know? It just seems incredible. 00:03:22,940 --> 00:03:23,380 [John] Yeah. 00:03:23,380 --> 00:03:28,079 [Eric] And the same is true in knowledge work. But what's your... What... Give me your example. 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:38,370 [John] Okay. So I've been, I've been doing, doing some reading, um, around the, uh, the turn of the century, like Gilded Age, like, time frame. 00:03:38,370 --> 00:03:38,380 [Eric] Yeah. Okay. 00:03:38,380 --> 00:03:39,140 [John] I think we've talked about this. 00:03:39,140 --> 00:03:39,680 [Eric] Yes. Yeah. 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:45,080 [John] So currently, I'm reading, um, kind of the most popular, uh, 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,940 [John] biography of, uh, John D. Rockefeller. 00:03:47,940 --> 00:03:48,800 [Eric] Okay. Yep. 00:03:48,800 --> 00:04:01,609 [John] And so there's an interesting, like, tidbit in the book where it would say that he could walk around... So he was very into, um, like his whole life, the, like, finances and ledgers and, like, what they would descri- Ledgers is what they would call them. 00:04:01,609 --> 00:04:01,640 [Eric] Yep. 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:03,760 [John] But, like, think of it as spreadsheets today. 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:04,000 [Eric] Yeah, yeah. 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:10,620 [John] But ledgers. So it told the story that, like, years after, like, he would've been do, like, doing this every day- 00:04:10,620 --> 00:04:10,660 [Eric] Right 00:04:10,660 --> 00:04:23,900 [John] ... he could walk up to an accountant or a person keeping a ledger, flip through, like, dozens, maybe even hundreds of pages and, like, quickly spot an error in a ledger, um, and tell them, like, "Hey, this looks great, but you, like, made this mistake." And the- 00:04:23,900 --> 00:04:24,260 [Eric] Isn't that crazy? 00:04:24,260 --> 00:04:31,130 [John] And, like, and, and, and s- like, fast and good, and the accountant would be like, "Yeah." And then, like, the accountant would double check everything else, and there were no- 00:04:31,130 --> 00:04:31,130 [Eric] Yeah 00:04:31,130 --> 00:04:33,170 [John] ... and there were no other errors. So it was just the one. 00:04:33,170 --> 00:04:33,180 [Eric] Yep. 00:04:33,180 --> 00:04:37,590 [John] So I feel like that, this is, like, top of mind for me today, but that is a great example of something- 00:04:37,590 --> 00:04:37,790 [Eric] Such a great example 00:04:37,790 --> 00:04:40,600 [John] ... nothing to do with AI or computers that's, like, fast and good. 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,240 [Eric] I have a, I have a modern knowledge work example of that. 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:44,020 [John] Ooh, love it. 00:04:44,020 --> 00:04:50,080 [Eric] So I was in a, um, I was leading marketing, you know, basically- 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:50,090 [John] Mm. 00:04:50,090 --> 00:04:50,780 [Eric] ... growth. 00:04:50,780 --> 00:04:50,960 [John] Yeah. 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,580 [Eric] Uh, and 00:04:53,580 --> 00:05:03,480 [Eric] one of the, one of my big, big projects was, uh, basically mathematizing... Is that a word, mathematizing? 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:03,520 [John] No, it's not. 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:04,500 [Eric] Quantify. Here. 00:05:04,500 --> 00:05:05,000 [John] Quantifying. 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:05,560 [Eric] Quantifying. 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:05,590 [John] Okay. Sure. 00:05:05,590 --> 00:05:10,720 [Eric] There we go. Okay. Wow. Mathematizing. [laughs] 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:11,480 [John] I like it. 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:11,520 [Eric] Slight- 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:11,960 [John] I'll allow it 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:12,920 [Eric] ... slight hallucination here. 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:15,260 [John] Scrabble word. [laughs] 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:16,680 [Eric] Um, quantifying the funnel, right? 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:16,790 [John] Mm-hmm. 00:05:16,790 --> 00:05:19,740 [Eric] And so it's like, okay, if we spend this amount of dollars, and we have this amount of traffic- 00:05:19,740 --> 00:05:19,750 [John] Right 00:05:19,750 --> 00:05:26,360 [Eric] ... and these channels, et cetera, you know, we can expect the pipeline throughput to be this, et cetera, right? And so once- 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:26,370 [John] Right 00:05:26,370 --> 00:05:35,300 [Eric] ... you quantify all of that, you can start tweaking knobs and, and observe changes in different, you know, in different parts of the funnel. Super fun, super difficult. 00:05:35,300 --> 00:05:35,720 [John] Right. 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:42,030 [Eric] Um, anyways, I had gotten that to a point where it was pretty sophisticated, and it was pretty reliable. 00:05:42,030 --> 00:05:42,060 [John] Right. 00:05:42,060 --> 00:05:49,430 [Eric] So we had started to use it to make decisions. And so once you get to that point, then you start to think about increasing budget in certain areas- 00:05:49,430 --> 00:05:49,680 [John] Yeah. Right 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:50,780 [Eric] ... so that you can drive additional growth. 00:05:50,780 --> 00:05:50,800 [John] Yeah. 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:55,539 [Eric] Right? And so then you get into, like, the forecasting element of this, where you're not necessarily- 00:05:55,540 --> 00:05:55,550 [John] Mm-hmm 00:05:55,550 --> 00:06:00,720 [Eric] ... trying to predict what happens at baseline, but, you know, if we put more money in here, what's gonna happen? 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:00,740 [John] Yeah. 00:06:00,740 --> 00:06:12,340 [Eric] And so I had this mentor who-Is a legendary chief marketing officer in Silicon Valley. Um, and I wanted his feedback on pushing this more to like- 00:06:12,340 --> 00:06:12,350 [John] Yeah 00:06:12,350 --> 00:06:14,100 [Eric] ... the forecasting side of things. 00:06:14,100 --> 00:06:14,340 [John] Right. 00:06:14,340 --> 00:06:22,360 [Eric] And so we hop on a call, I share my screen, I'm walking through this, you know, this spreadsheet that I built, the ledger. 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:23,340 [John] Yeah. There you go. 00:06:23,340 --> 00:06:24,720 [Eric] And 00:06:24,780 --> 00:06:33,140 [Eric] it, it had to be within five seconds. He just immediately said, "There's no way you're getting that much throughput through like lifecycle email." 00:06:33,140 --> 00:06:34,140 [John] Mm-hmm. 00:06:34,140 --> 00:06:36,000 [Eric] I... And I, and I was like, "Wait, what?" Like- 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:36,070 [John] Yeah 00:06:36,070 --> 00:06:36,800 [Eric] ... it, it just- 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:36,910 [John] Right 00:06:36,910 --> 00:06:38,300 [Eric] ... immediately he- 00:06:38,300 --> 00:06:38,410 [John] Right 00:06:38,410 --> 00:06:41,400 [Eric] ... knew that one of the parameters- 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:41,410 [John] Right 00:06:41,410 --> 00:06:42,210 [Eric] ... was way off. 00:06:42,210 --> 00:06:42,520 [John] That's right. Yeah. 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:42,800 [Eric] You know? 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:43,280 [John] Right. Yeah. 00:06:43,280 --> 00:06:46,820 [Eric] Uh, which is... Which it was crazy, right? It was just so crazy. But- 00:06:46,820 --> 00:06:47,000 [John] Right 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:48,000 [Eric] ... the fast and good. 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,020 [John] Yeah. Yeah. That's perfect. 00:06:50,020 --> 00:06:51,960 [Eric] So 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:58,180 [Eric] I have noticed that... Okay, so one thing is that people who are fast and good are pretty rare. 00:06:58,180 --> 00:06:59,160 [John] Okay. Yeah. 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,000 [Eric] Would you agree with that? 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:10,540 [John] Yeah. I mean, in general, yes. I, I think, I think it, it depends a little bit, um, on what it is, but professionally I found it pretty rare. Yeah. 00:07:10,540 --> 00:07:13,940 [Eric] Yeah. I think there's more people who are fast than people who are good. 00:07:13,940 --> 00:07:15,370 [John] I agree with that. Yep. 00:07:15,370 --> 00:07:19,640 [Eric] And then I think that there are very few people who are fast and good. 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:23,200 [John] Well, and then what about, like, slow and bad and fast and bad? Like- 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:23,450 [Eric] [laughs] 00:07:23,450 --> 00:07:24,820 [John] ... those are categories too, right? [laughs] 00:07:24,820 --> 00:07:29,920 [Eric] Very commonly. Way more common. [laughs] Do we wanna put percentages to that? 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:31,900 [John] No. [laughs] Maybe. 00:07:31,900 --> 00:07:36,719 [Eric] It is... I will say though, in most organizations as I think back professionally- 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:37,480 [John] Mm-hmm 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:42,420 [Eric] ... there generally are several people who are really, really good, and their speed varies. 00:07:42,420 --> 00:07:43,380 [John] Yeah. 00:07:43,380 --> 00:07:47,780 [Eric] Most people, I would say, are sort of medium speed, medium- 00:07:47,780 --> 00:07:48,480 [John] Sure 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:49,800 [Eric] ... you know, quality. 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:50,380 [John] Right. 00:07:50,380 --> 00:07:57,760 [Eric] And, uh, but when you go work at a place where every... Like, pretty much everyone's, like, really good- 00:07:57,760 --> 00:07:58,020 [John] Yeah 00:07:58,020 --> 00:07:58,700 [Eric] ... and most people- 00:07:58,700 --> 00:07:58,710 [John] That's- 00:07:58,710 --> 00:07:59,500 [Eric] ... are really fast- 00:07:59,500 --> 00:07:59,510 [John] Yeah 00:07:59,510 --> 00:08:01,410 [Eric] ... it's, it is insane. Um- 00:08:01,410 --> 00:08:07,320 [John] Yeah. Well, and there's also a cultural thing there. I think some, some places don't value speed as much as others. 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:07,740 [Eric] Yep. 00:08:07,740 --> 00:08:22,580 [John] And you can be really good and, and, and there's... I think there's always maybe a little bit of a trade-off. So I would say, like, you can optimize for speed or quality, and the best person is the, the person that, like, situat- situationally optimizes across- 00:08:22,580 --> 00:08:24,060 [Eric] For the right one 00:08:24,060 --> 00:08:24,070 [John] ... the two. 00:08:24,070 --> 00:08:24,070 [Eric] Yep. 00:08:24,070 --> 00:08:36,570 [John] For the right one and the right circumstance, and has a general, like, high speed, high quality general setting, but can also tweak per circumstance of like, eh, like I can dial quality up or down a little bit, speed up or down a bit to, to get the right result. 00:08:36,570 --> 00:08:37,300 [Eric] To match the business context. 00:08:37,300 --> 00:08:37,900 [John] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 00:08:37,900 --> 00:08:38,420 [Eric] 100%. 00:08:38,420 --> 00:08:52,220 [John] That's really important. Um, but I think there are some business contexts where, like, it's like quality and they like... I don't wanna say they don't care about speed at all, but, like, speed is like, doesn't really matter. Could possibly 'cause there's a bottleneck where speed isn't, like, valued. 00:08:52,260 --> 00:08:52,900 [Eric] Yep. 00:08:52,900 --> 00:08:59,660 [John] Um, and then s- and then the other thing, whereas, like, if you're slow and bad, like those are the people that get fired. 00:08:59,660 --> 00:08:59,810 [Eric] Yeah. 00:08:59,810 --> 00:09:00,280 [John] If you're slow and- 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:00,880 [Eric] 100% 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:04,460 [John] ... good, slow and good culturally, like, you can work in some organizations. 00:09:04,460 --> 00:09:05,330 [Eric] Yep. Or in- 00:09:05,330 --> 00:09:05,330 [John] And- 00:09:05,330 --> 00:09:06,220 [Eric] ... certain roles. 00:09:06,220 --> 00:09:13,760 [John] Right. In certain roles. And then if you're fast and, like, not very good, there's also, like, places you can, like, be around for a long time 'cause, like, well, like, they're fast. 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:13,830 [Eric] Yeah. 00:09:13,830 --> 00:09:14,400 [John] You know what I mean? 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:14,820 [Eric] Yeah, yeah. 00:09:14,820 --> 00:09:15,980 [John] So it's, that's interesting. 00:09:15,980 --> 00:09:20,240 [Eric] One interesting example is writing a speech, you know. So, like, I've written a couple talks- 00:09:20,300 --> 00:09:20,440 [John] Mm-hmm 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,840 [Eric] ... you know, for executives who, you know, go to a keynote- 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:23,520 [John] Like ghostwriting 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:24,600 [Eric] ... a major event. 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:25,560 [John] Yeah. Right. 00:09:25,560 --> 00:09:30,520 [Eric] And that's one of those things where it just needs to be right and it doesn't really matter how long it takes. 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:30,910 [John] Yeah, exactly. 00:09:30,910 --> 00:09:32,720 [Eric] Like, we're just going to put as much time- 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:32,870 [John] Right 00:09:32,870 --> 00:09:34,590 [Eric] ... as it takes to get this correct. 00:09:34,590 --> 00:09:34,660 [John] Right. 00:09:34,660 --> 00:09:37,560 [Eric] You know? So that the 12 minutes on stage is- 00:09:37,560 --> 00:09:38,340 [John] Tight, fact-checked 00:09:38,340 --> 00:09:38,620 [Eric] ... you know- 00:09:38,620 --> 00:09:39,670 [John] Engaging, like all the things 00:09:39,670 --> 00:09:40,210 [Eric] ... yeah, exactly. 00:09:40,210 --> 00:09:40,240 [John] Yeah. 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:40,690 [Eric] Exactly. 00:09:40,690 --> 00:09:40,700 [John] Right. 00:09:40,700 --> 00:09:42,200 [Eric] And the practice that goes into it, right? 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:42,940 [John] Yeah. 00:09:42,940 --> 00:09:58,180 [Eric] But okay, so... And I agree. I would say, like, the superpower actually is not just the combination of being fast and being good. It is the ability, like you said, to discern where to apply, like, which skills and, like- 00:09:58,180 --> 00:09:58,449 [John] Mm-hmm 00:09:58,449 --> 00:09:59,430 [Eric] ... which level of combination you need there. 00:09:59,430 --> 00:10:00,160 [John] And the combination. Yeah. 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:00,580 [Eric] Right? 00:10:00,580 --> 00:10:01,180 [John] Yeah. 00:10:01,180 --> 00:10:11,720 [Eric] Um, but okay, here's what I've noticed in, in throughout my career and, like, observing people around me is that being fast and good as a superpower creates different types of leverage. 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:12,600 [John] Okay. 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:17,200 [Eric] So first of all, it creates economic leverage. 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:17,560 [John] Yep. 00:10:17,560 --> 00:10:28,420 [Eric] And I think that there are two sides to that. One is that you can literally get more better work done than most people, and so your ROI per hour is way higher. 00:10:28,420 --> 00:10:28,500 [John] Yeah. 00:10:28,500 --> 00:10:29,050 [Eric] And so you- 00:10:29,050 --> 00:10:29,050 [John] Sure 00:10:29,050 --> 00:10:33,380 [Eric] ... can actually do a high-paying job in less time than it takes other people- 00:10:33,380 --> 00:10:33,760 [John] Right 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:34,740 [Eric] ... to do that job. 00:10:34,740 --> 00:10:35,720 [John] Right. 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:37,640 [Eric] Um, 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:41,290 [Eric] you know, which is great, but it also leads to higher compensation over time, right? 00:10:41,290 --> 00:10:41,320 [John] Yeah. 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:48,660 [Eric] Because anyone who you've worked with where people just repeatedly say, "Hey, that person's really good. Like, they're just really good." 00:10:48,660 --> 00:10:48,850 [John] Yeah. 00:10:48,850 --> 00:10:50,460 [Eric] They just tend to make more money over time. 00:10:50,460 --> 00:10:50,760 [John] Yeah. 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:51,080 [Eric] Right? 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:51,400 [John] Yeah. 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:55,339 [Eric] Um, and that of course translates into career leverage. 00:10:55,340 --> 00:10:55,460 [John] Yeah. 00:10:55,460 --> 00:10:56,040 [Eric] Right? Like- 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:56,520 [John] Yep 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:09,720 [Eric] ... you're going to progress in your career, be given more responsibility, all this sort of stuff. One of the ironic things is people who are really, really good at a particular craft or even multiple crafts, I think tend not to wanna, you know, climb the traditional career ladder. 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:10,270 [John] Right. 00:11:10,270 --> 00:11:12,210 [Eric] [laughs] You know, and become managers or whatever. 00:11:12,210 --> 00:11:12,900 [John] Right. 00:11:12,900 --> 00:11:25,540 [Eric] Um, which is interesting. The other thing, and I think that you have probably experienced this a ton, is that it... Being fast and good is s- a massive amount of leverage as a manager. 00:11:25,540 --> 00:11:27,040 [John] Yes. 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:30,620 [Eric] Because managing people is hugely time-consuming. 00:11:30,620 --> 00:11:30,820 [John] Right. 00:11:30,820 --> 00:11:37,640 [Eric] But especially in today's world, the role of, like, I'm just a pure manager 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,980 [Eric] is diminishing because of how many people can 00:11:40,980 --> 00:11:43,320 [Eric] get more leverage out of their work with AI. 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:44,120 [John] Right. 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:51,280 [Eric] Right? And so, um, teams are getting smaller. The expectations for output are increasing, right? 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:51,580 [John] Right. 00:11:51,580 --> 00:11:59,100 [Eric] And so if you're fast and good, you can actually... You have more margin to, like, manage people and do a good job of managing people- 00:11:59,100 --> 00:11:59,110 [John] Right 00:11:59,110 --> 00:12:02,960 [Eric] ... and also sort of be the player coach. I don't know, have you experienced that? 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:19,560 [John] Yeah. And, and I think there's another, it doesn't like tightly fit into a bucket maybe, but I'm also seeing that-And well, actually this makes sense. So you get hired for a role, and the role is, like, you have X amount of things you're, like, supposed to s- to do in any given week or month, right? 00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:20,120 [Eric] Yep. 00:12:20,180 --> 00:12:33,160 [John] And then you have, like, the Y of, like, let's call it spare time or margin. If you're super fast and super good, even if your role is scoped for somebody that's, like, pretty good, you have margin, right? 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:33,580 [Eric] Yep. Yep. 00:12:33,580 --> 00:12:39,240 [John] And if you have margin, you can take that margin to reinvest in being even faster and better- 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:39,250 [Eric] Yes 00:12:39,250 --> 00:12:40,130 [John] ... at the other piece. 00:12:40,130 --> 00:12:40,130 [Eric] Yep. 00:12:40,130 --> 00:12:42,420 [John] And that is a compounding interest thing. 00:12:42,420 --> 00:12:42,749 [Eric] 100% compounding interest. 00:12:42,749 --> 00:12:45,780 [John] It compounds over an entire career, not even a role. 00:12:45,780 --> 00:12:46,520 [Eric] Yep. 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:58,280 [John] And that's, that's the thing, 'cause if, if your role is sco- if your current role and your current capacity are matched 100% to 100%, then that's like you never get ahead. 00:12:58,280 --> 00:12:58,460 [Eric] Yep. 00:12:58,460 --> 00:13:08,900 [John] But if you figure out how to get, like, 10% or 15% or maybe even, like, 20% margin, and you reinvest that margin into being faster and better, it compounds over a whole career. 00:13:08,900 --> 00:13:09,000 [Eric] Totally. 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:09,820 [John] It's amazing. 00:13:09,820 --> 00:13:16,580 [Eric] Totally. I 100% agree. And then that's where you get, you know, there's a bunch of debate over the 10X, the 100X- 00:13:16,580 --> 00:13:16,600 [John] [laughs] 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:17,080 [Eric] ... you know. 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:17,840 [John] Yeah, right. 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:19,370 [Eric] Whatever, right? But I do think- 00:13:19,370 --> 00:13:20,580 [John] But that's how people do it, and, and I think- 00:13:20,580 --> 00:13:20,870 [Eric] That's how you do 00:13:20,870 --> 00:13:23,840 [John] ... people that aren't in there, like, don't get it. 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:24,160 [Eric] Yep. 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:30,500 [John] And, and sometimes, like, you might be in the wrong role for your current capacity, and you need a different role where you can get that, like, 10%, 15% margin. 00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:31,120 [Eric] Totally. 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:38,020 [John] Or you just need to, like, donate 10% of your own time to get the margin, and then you have the... Like- 00:13:38,020 --> 00:13:38,300 [Eric] Yes 00:13:38,300 --> 00:13:39,950 [John] ... but, but there's just no other way to do it. 00:13:39,950 --> 00:13:46,500 [Eric] There's no other way to do it. I agree. I think that's actually... We'll talk about this in a minute in terms of, like, how do you actually get there- 00:13:46,500 --> 00:13:46,850 [John] Right 00:13:46,850 --> 00:13:47,300 [Eric] ... in terms of- 00:13:47,300 --> 00:13:47,310 [John] Right 00:13:47,310 --> 00:14:08,400 [Eric] ... being fast and good. Um, the... Okay. The last thing I'll, I'll point out before we start talking about what do- how do you actually get there, is AI has been such an interesting ingredient to this entire conversation- 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:08,500 [John] Right 00:14:08,500 --> 00:14:10,620 [Eric] ... from my perception, 00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:17,200 [Eric] because... I'll try to explain this. The, like, 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:22,640 [Eric] for people who are... So if you're individually, if you're fast, but you're like okay on quality- 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:23,360 [John] Mm-hmm 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:27,960 [Eric] ... um, AI can make you faster. If you're- 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:27,969 [John] Yeah 00:14:27,969 --> 00:14:36,580 [Eric] ... good, AI can, like, augment you as well. But if you're fast and good, the people who are wielding AI 00:14:36,580 --> 00:14:42,380 [Eric] get dramatically more value out of it, and it's, it is a, it is an accelerant like- 00:14:42,380 --> 00:14:42,390 [John] Right 00:14:42,390 --> 00:14:44,120 [Eric] ... nothing that I've seen before. 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:44,380 [John] Yeah. 00:14:44,380 --> 00:14:45,020 [Eric] Where- 00:14:45,020 --> 00:14:45,130 [John] Right 00:14:45,130 --> 00:14:58,040 [Eric] ... one person who's fast and good, who really harnesses the ability to use AI as a tool in their workflows, can do the job of multiple individual people, truly. 00:14:58,040 --> 00:14:58,090 [John] Yeah. 00:14:58,090 --> 00:14:58,920 [Eric] I mean, not, not- 00:14:58,920 --> 00:14:59,020 [John] Yeah 00:14:59,020 --> 00:15:05,040 [Eric] ... like in a hypothetical and, you know, not, not hyperbolically, right? And so sort of 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:21,180 [Eric] AI raises the floor on speed, so everyone is going to have to learn how to do things faster because of AI. Um, but being a good craftsman raises the ceiling on what's possible, right? And when you combine those things, it's pretty incredible. 00:15:21,180 --> 00:15:24,900 [John] Yeah. I, I think I have a really practical example with the podcast. 00:15:24,900 --> 00:15:25,420 [Eric] Okay. 00:15:25,420 --> 00:15:36,280 [John] So we, we did an episode, um, earlier today on, uh, is, and it'll, it'll come out soon, like, tokens and, and spending more tokens and how I think that's better. 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:36,430 [Eric] Yep. 00:15:36,430 --> 00:15:44,540 [John] Is, like, the rough idea for the episode. To, to prep for that, like, pre-AI, I would've, like, thought about it, like, sat down, like, written, written about it, like- 00:15:44,540 --> 00:15:44,740 [Eric] Mm-hmm 00:15:44,740 --> 00:15:47,220 [John] ... probably a couple hours to, like, do a really good job- 00:15:47,220 --> 00:15:47,249 [Eric] Mm-hmm 00:15:47,249 --> 00:16:00,400 [John] ... prepping for it. And, like, this new world, um, I can, I can use a, like, really good, like, we really like ElevenLabs here. We used it for the episode. Um, they're, they're, um, really good at audio processing, audio to text, text to audio. 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:00,920 [Eric] Yep. 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:09,840 [John] So I can, like, on my drive home, like, 15, 20 minutes, talk into a microphone and get a perfect word-for-word transcription of all my thoughts on this. 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:10,020 [Eric] Yep. 00:16:10,020 --> 00:16:21,700 [John] And then spend a very few minutes on, like, organizing it with an AI tool and, like, getting it into an outline and whatever, and I've, like, drastically compressed the time and gotten, like, potentially even a better quality output. 00:16:21,700 --> 00:16:22,170 [Eric] Totally. 00:16:22,170 --> 00:16:24,930 [John] Um, and that's just, like, with the show. I mean, you can- 00:16:24,930 --> 00:16:24,940 [Eric] Yeah. 00:16:24,940 --> 00:16:27,640 [John] Yeah. And I think you're finding that, like, there's a million other, like- 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:28,620 [Eric] A million other things 00:16:28,620 --> 00:16:28,980 [John] ... applications. Yeah. 00:16:28,980 --> 00:16:41,350 [Eric] Okay. The... Okay, so I have a couple of thoughts on... 'Cause a- as I was thinking about this, I was just thinking about the people, you know, that guy who looked at my ledger of forecasts and, you know, immediately- 00:16:41,350 --> 00:16:42,280 [John] Yeah, yeah. "This is wrong." Yeah, yeah. Right 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:49,000 [Eric] ... and the people who, the people who fit this sort of superpower, um, 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,900 [Eric] you know, who, who have accomplished that, right? Who have- 00:16:52,900 --> 00:16:53,140 [John] Yes 00:16:53,140 --> 00:16:54,310 [Eric] ... gained this superpower. 00:16:54,310 --> 00:16:55,960 [John] Right. In one or more areas. 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,490 [Eric] In one or more areas. How did they do that? 00:16:58,490 --> 00:16:58,500 [John] Yeah. 00:16:58,500 --> 00:17:03,920 [Eric] And so there are a couple things that I've noticed. So the very first thing, which actually goes back to our very first episode on the show- 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:04,460 [John] Okay 00:17:04,460 --> 00:17:14,300 [Eric] ... is these people tend to pursue getting good at a craft as opposed to trying to advance their career. 00:17:14,300 --> 00:17:14,750 [John] Yeah. 00:17:14,750 --> 00:17:24,400 [Eric] And so I wrote about this in my blog, and the term I used was you can sort of cross this threshold where you pursue career as craft, right? 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:24,410 [John] Okay. 00:17:24,410 --> 00:17:25,950 [Eric] Where advancing collectively- 00:17:25,950 --> 00:17:27,600 [John] Oh, your craft is advancing your career 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:29,610 [Eric] ... your craft is advancing your career. 00:17:29,610 --> 00:17:29,620 [John] Okay. Sure. 00:17:29,620 --> 00:17:34,610 [Eric] And then you sort of lose touch with actually having a craft that's, like, a, a hard skill or m- like multiple- 00:17:34,610 --> 00:17:34,620 [John] Yeah 00:17:34,620 --> 00:17:36,040 [Eric] ... hard skills. 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,040 [John] Or, or even, like, a soft skill [laughs] for that matter. 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:39,580 [Eric] Or soft skills. 00:17:39,580 --> 00:17:40,600 [John] Or, like, the right... Yeah. 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:40,740 [Eric] Right. 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:41,520 [John] But yeah. 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:58,030 [Eric] But I think that is, that's a really interesting... You know, and at, at some point, at some point as you move, and you know this, because, you know, you were a CTO, y- a huge amount of your time goes into managing executive relationships and board relationships- 00:17:58,030 --> 00:17:58,030 [John] Yeah 00:17:58,030 --> 00:17:58,990 [Eric] ... and all that sort of stuff, right? 00:17:58,990 --> 00:17:59,000 [John] For sure. Yeah. 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:06,080 [Eric] And so there's sort of a point at which, like, it's physically impossible to put as much time into, you know, the actual skill craft- 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:06,090 [John] Yeah 00:18:06,090 --> 00:18:07,760 [Eric] ... as you could, you know, in, in different roles. 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:17,008 [John] Well, that other thing is a craft too.Um, I, I think the thing people make the mistake of is investing in that too early when they don't have an established craft. 00:18:17,008 --> 00:18:18,787 [Eric] Yes. Politics as a craft. 00:18:18,788 --> 00:18:19,808 [John] Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah. 00:18:19,808 --> 00:18:32,138 [Eric] A- 100%. But I would actually say to, to go even one layer deeper on this, I would actually say the people that I've observed, politics as craft is a means to an end. They get- 00:18:32,138 --> 00:18:32,138 [John] Yeah 00:18:32,138 --> 00:18:33,928 [Eric] ... good at it just to the point- 00:18:33,928 --> 00:18:33,938 [John] Yeah, yeah, yeah 00:18:33,938 --> 00:18:34,448 [Eric] ... where it- 00:18:34,448 --> 00:18:34,478 [John] Right 00:18:34,478 --> 00:18:35,348 [Eric] ... helps them- 00:18:35,348 --> 00:18:35,688 [John] Right 00:18:35,688 --> 00:18:37,198 [Eric] ... you know, pursue their true- 00:18:37,198 --> 00:18:37,198 [John] Right 00:18:37,198 --> 00:18:37,468 [Eric] ... their true craft. 00:18:37,468 --> 00:18:37,868 [John] I agree. 00:18:37,868 --> 00:18:38,148 [Eric] Right? Like- 00:18:38,148 --> 00:18:40,118 [John] I agree. Yeah. That's the right way to look at it. 00:18:40,118 --> 00:18:44,828 [Eric] And they recognize, okay, this is a system. This is a political system. This is a skill set. 00:18:44,828 --> 00:18:45,608 [John] Right. 00:18:45,608 --> 00:18:48,888 [Eric] And there's a great book, It's All Politics. Have we talked about this? 00:18:48,888 --> 00:18:49,328 [John] No. 00:18:49,328 --> 00:18:57,577 [Eric] Oh, it's such a good book, right? And it... This is... It's, uh, basically the premise of the book, where it's like, this person is so talented, they're so good, they're a great manager, like blah, blah, blah, right? 00:18:57,577 --> 00:18:57,588 [John] Right. 00:18:57,588 --> 00:18:59,158 [Eric] And it's like why can't they advance in their career? 00:18:59,158 --> 00:18:59,158 [John] Okay, yeah. 00:18:59,158 --> 00:19:03,088 [Eric] And it's like, because you're denying that politics is actually something that you have to get- 00:19:03,088 --> 00:19:03,178 [John] Okay 00:19:03,178 --> 00:19:03,808 [Eric] ... good at, you know? 00:19:03,808 --> 00:19:04,628 [John] Yeah. 00:19:04,628 --> 00:19:15,808 [Eric] Um, but if you turn that into the craft, I think that that is where you, um... That's where you start... The compound interest starts to diminish pretty significantly. 00:19:15,808 --> 00:19:16,228 [John] Yes. 00:19:16,228 --> 00:19:30,678 [Eric] Um, okay, so that's one. The other thing that I've noticed, and I would very much put you into this category, is that people with a superpower have tended to master basics across a pretty wide- 00:19:30,678 --> 00:19:30,678 [John] Mm 00:19:30,678 --> 00:19:36,388 [Eric] ... variety of disciplines, right? So business is a huge one, and I'm mainly thinking- 00:19:36,388 --> 00:19:36,428 [John] Mm-hmm 00:19:36,428 --> 00:19:38,218 [Eric] ... about knowledge work, uh, that, 'cause that's our world. 00:19:38,218 --> 00:19:38,228 [John] Sure. 00:19:38,228 --> 00:20:00,398 [Eric] But I think that these sort of apply generally. But, like, people who are really curious about a business. So if you think about designers, engineers, salespeople, whoever that you've... Whoever you've worked with inside of a business who sort of have this superpower, they really tend to have a deep level of curiosity on, what are the mechanics of the business? 00:20:00,398 --> 00:20:00,518 [John] Right. 00:20:00,518 --> 00:20:01,548 [Eric] How does it make money? 00:20:01,548 --> 00:20:01,888 [John] Right. 00:20:01,888 --> 00:20:18,208 [Eric] Where are we going? You know, what is the actual business model? What is the cost profile of the business, right? And it's like, okay, well, an engineer isn't responsible for thinking through any of those things. But when they do, it's so good to work with them- 00:20:18,208 --> 00:20:18,368 [John] Right 00:20:18,368 --> 00:20:28,668 [Eric] ... because they have s- they're- they're thinking really critically about how anything that they're working on or discussing is related to sort of the root of the business- 00:20:28,668 --> 00:20:28,758 [John] Yeah 00:20:28,758 --> 00:20:29,637 [Eric] ... and the mechanics of how it works. 00:20:29,637 --> 00:20:47,068 [John] And people think it's weird, uh, uh, [laughs] actually been in a meeting in the last couple weeks where it wasn't uncomfortable in a bad way, but it was weird that, like, it's supposed to be a technical call. G- like, long story, but it's a call with a prospect and saying, "Hey, we wanna implement, like, this technology." And they wanted to talk about the technology. 00:20:47,068 --> 00:20:47,898 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:20:47,898 --> 00:20:51,768 [John] But I spent, like, 45 minutes of an hour call talking about their business. 00:20:51,768 --> 00:20:52,488 [Eric] Yep. 00:20:52,488 --> 00:21:00,728 [John] And then answered some technology questions at the end. And, um, probably felt a little bit weird from their end, but that... I mean, that's just my opinion, the right way to do it. 00:21:00,728 --> 00:21:03,768 [Eric] Yeah. I agree. I agree. But that's actually rare. 00:21:03,768 --> 00:21:04,288 [John] Yeah. Yeah. 00:21:04,288 --> 00:21:04,688 [Eric] You know? 00:21:04,688 --> 00:21:06,448 [John] Well, which is why it seemed weird, I think. [laughs] 00:21:06,448 --> 00:21:12,718 [Eric] Yeah. Uh, okay, other basic skills, we'll mention just a couple here, but writing and communication- 00:21:12,718 --> 00:21:12,718 [John] Yeah 00:21:12,718 --> 00:21:13,988 [Eric] ... I think is a huge one. 00:21:13,988 --> 00:21:14,268 [John] Right. 00:21:14,268 --> 00:21:22,408 [Eric] So these people all tend to be really good communicators. And I would say writing, I can tend to be biased on this one, because- 00:21:22,408 --> 00:21:22,688 [John] For sure 00:21:22,688 --> 00:21:23,577 [Eric] ... you know, that's- 00:21:23,577 --> 00:21:24,048 [John] It's kind of what you do 00:21:24,048 --> 00:21:25,448 [Eric] ... currently how I make- [laughs] 00:21:25,448 --> 00:21:26,088 [John] [laughs] 00:21:26,088 --> 00:21:40,038 [Eric] ... how I make my living. But I think there are different forms of this. Like, I remember working... Like, one of the best engineers in... that I've ever worked with and one of my favorite people to work with, you know, he wasn't, like, a blog post writer, but he was one of the best communicators I've- 00:21:40,038 --> 00:21:40,148 [John] Mm 00:21:40,148 --> 00:21:42,378 [Eric] ... ever worked with because he could- 00:21:42,378 --> 00:21:43,408 [John] And was an engineer, you said? 00:21:43,408 --> 00:21:44,348 [Eric] And was an engineer- 00:21:44,348 --> 00:21:44,357 [John] Yeah. That's so unique 00:21:44,357 --> 00:21:50,008 [Eric] ... because he could just distill ideas down into their absolute purest form. 00:21:50,008 --> 00:21:51,088 [John] Yeah. 00:21:51,088 --> 00:21:51,748 [Eric] Um- 00:21:51,748 --> 00:21:52,828 [John] Such a cool skill set. 00:21:52,828 --> 00:22:06,137 [Eric] Such a cool skill set. And again, going back to AI as an amplifier, it's like this guy was using AI at a more advanced level than all of his peers, and I really think that his ability to crystallize communication- 00:22:06,137 --> 00:22:06,137 [John] Mm 00:22:06,137 --> 00:22:08,468 [Eric] ... was a massive part of that. Um- 00:22:08,468 --> 00:22:10,167 [John] Yeah. Yeah. 00:22:10,168 --> 00:22:18,248 [Eric] Uh, okay, the last couple here. You can tell me if this list is comprehensive. So I would say product thinking is actually another- 00:22:18,248 --> 00:22:18,328 [John] Mm 00:22:18,328 --> 00:22:19,608 [Eric] ... um, example of this. 00:22:19,608 --> 00:22:19,708 [John] Yeah. 00:22:19,708 --> 00:22:23,428 [Eric] Which I would really distill down to customer empathy. 00:22:23,428 --> 00:22:24,608 [John] Okay. Yeah. 00:22:24,608 --> 00:22:27,428 [Eric] Right? Like, can I actually think like the customer and- 00:22:27,428 --> 00:22:27,438 [John] Yes 00:22:27,438 --> 00:22:29,588 [Eric] ... try to understand their problem? 00:22:29,588 --> 00:22:30,788 [John] Yeah, 100%. 00:22:30,788 --> 00:22:36,568 [Eric] Um, which is really hard. Like, anyone who hasn't done product work- 00:22:36,568 --> 00:22:36,598 [John] Right 00:22:36,598 --> 00:22:43,328 [Eric] ... the most difficult thing is trying to understand a problem from the customer's perspective. 00:22:43,328 --> 00:22:43,828 [John] Yep. 00:22:43,828 --> 00:22:46,628 [Eric] Um, and then translating that into- 00:22:46,628 --> 00:22:46,868 [John] Mm-hmm 00:22:46,868 --> 00:22:48,148 [Eric] ... you know, some sort of solution. 00:22:48,148 --> 00:22:48,928 [John] Yeah. 00:22:48,928 --> 00:22:49,308 [Eric] And- 00:22:49,308 --> 00:23:00,648 [John] And, and to develop a gut instinct of, like, of, well, let's say working with engineering and be like, "I see what you did there. I understand how it works. I even like how it works. Our customers are gonna hate that." [laughs] 00:23:00,648 --> 00:23:01,878 [Eric] Yeah. Yeah. Or not use it, or- 00:23:01,878 --> 00:23:03,088 [John] Or not use it or whatever, yeah. 00:23:03,088 --> 00:23:03,398 [Eric] You know? 00:23:03,398 --> 00:23:03,408 [John] Yeah. 00:23:03,408 --> 00:23:04,868 [Eric] Or it misunderstands their problem. 00:23:04,868 --> 00:23:05,158 [John] Right. 00:23:05,158 --> 00:23:05,158 [Eric] Right? 00:23:05,158 --> 00:23:05,188 [John] Right. 00:23:05,188 --> 00:23:13,607 [Eric] And, and I'm trying to think. There's probably only one time in my career where I was, like, s- you know, 00:23:13,608 --> 00:23:24,668 [Eric] perfect... not perfect, but where I hit the bullseye on what I thought needed to be the solution and what actually solved the problem, only one time. There's only, like, one thing that I've built where it was like w- 00:23:24,668 --> 00:23:25,148 [John] Without- 00:23:25,148 --> 00:23:25,898 [Eric] We pretty much nailed it 00:23:25,898 --> 00:23:27,467 [John] ... without, like, talking much to customers or stuff? 00:23:27,468 --> 00:23:27,928 [Eric] Yeah, like- 00:23:27,928 --> 00:23:28,298 [John] Okay. Yeah 00:23:28,298 --> 00:23:30,988 [Eric] ... essentially, like, "Here's what I think needs to happen. Let's go test it with customers." 00:23:31,028 --> 00:23:31,038 [John] I see. 00:23:31,038 --> 00:23:32,108 [Eric] Like, okay, that was actually- 00:23:32,108 --> 00:23:32,178 [John] And you were right the first try 00:23:32,178 --> 00:23:33,027 [Eric] ... pretty close, right? 00:23:33,028 --> 00:23:33,108 [John] Okay. Yeah, yeah. 00:23:33,108 --> 00:23:41,058 [Eric] Because most of the time what you need to do is it's actually a process of developing a deeper level of empathy in a very specific area- 00:23:41,058 --> 00:23:41,058 [John] Yes 00:23:41,058 --> 00:23:42,568 [Eric] ... than you had before. 00:23:42,568 --> 00:23:42,688 [John] Yep. Yep. 00:23:42,688 --> 00:23:44,158 [Eric] And it just changes the way that you see things. 00:23:44,158 --> 00:23:44,448 [John] Yep. 00:23:44,448 --> 00:23:49,978 [Eric] Um, okay, data is another one. Like, I... You just have to be able- 00:23:49,978 --> 00:23:49,978 [John] Mm 00:23:49,978 --> 00:23:51,008 [Eric] ... to work with data. 00:23:51,008 --> 00:23:51,558 [John] Okay. Yeah. 00:23:51,558 --> 00:23:55,868 [Eric] And I think this, for me at least, ties into the business conversation. 00:23:55,868 --> 00:23:55,898 [John] Yeah. 00:23:55,898 --> 00:24:00,848 [Eric] Like, in order... The way that you describe how a business makes money is through data. 00:24:00,848 --> 00:24:01,588 [John] True. Yeah. 00:24:01,588 --> 00:24:05,847 [Eric] Right? Um, and to me, that's just, like, a fundamental... You know, data- 00:24:05,848 --> 00:24:12,024 [John] Or just anything. How, how they make money is probably, like, the most succinct way to say it, butA bunch of activities, right? 00:24:12,024 --> 00:24:12,144 [Eric] Yeah. 00:24:12,144 --> 00:24:14,144 [John] How they, how they get goods in and out. 00:24:14,144 --> 00:24:14,324 [Eric] Right. 00:24:14,324 --> 00:24:14,474 [John] How they- 00:24:14,474 --> 00:24:14,944 [Eric] It's how... Yeah 00:24:14,944 --> 00:24:14,964 [John] ... you know. [laughs] 00:24:14,964 --> 00:24:16,284 [Eric] It's how you describe- 00:24:16,284 --> 00:24:16,294 [John] Right 00:24:16,294 --> 00:24:19,404 [Eric] ... you know, it's how you describe, analyze, forecast, like the- 00:24:19,404 --> 00:24:19,503 [John] Yeah 00:24:19,504 --> 00:24:20,104 [Eric] ... all that stuff- 00:24:20,104 --> 00:24:20,234 [John] Right 00:24:20,234 --> 00:24:21,114 [Eric] ... like of a business, right? 00:24:21,114 --> 00:24:21,124 [John] Yep. 00:24:21,124 --> 00:24:25,984 [Eric] And so data is sort of the language of that. You know, or an engineering system or whatever- 00:24:25,984 --> 00:24:26,014 [John] Yeah 00:24:26,014 --> 00:24:26,964 [Eric] ... it is, you know? 00:24:26,964 --> 00:24:27,704 [John] Mm-hmm. 00:24:27,704 --> 00:24:35,324 [Eric] Um, and then the last one on my list is mental models and history. So we've talked about- 00:24:35,324 --> 00:24:35,374 [John] Mm-hmm 00:24:35,374 --> 00:24:36,484 [Eric] ... mental models on the show. 00:24:36,484 --> 00:24:37,584 [John] Yep. 00:24:37,584 --> 00:24:42,864 [Eric] But these are just sort of core disciplines, you know, picked out from 00:24:42,864 --> 00:24:55,424 [Eric] different, uh, you know, different areas, right? So like science, you know, mathematics, economics, et cetera, that are sort of like general principles. Uh, we have the book here. Here, we'll put it on camera again. 00:24:55,424 --> 00:24:56,004 [John] Yeah. 00:24:56,004 --> 00:24:58,024 [Eric] The Great Mental Models. Um- 00:24:58,024 --> 00:25:00,124 [John] And they come up in your mind once you- 00:25:00,124 --> 00:25:00,974 [Eric] They come up in your mind 00:25:00,974 --> 00:25:01,504 [John] ... I have a, I have a- 00:25:01,504 --> 00:25:01,724 [Eric] Right 00:25:01,724 --> 00:25:06,324 [John] ... like really short example. Um, so I was reading the John D. Rockefeller biography. 00:25:06,324 --> 00:25:07,164 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:25:07,164 --> 00:25:12,504 [John] And, um, kept thinking about the, um, map is not the territory. 00:25:12,504 --> 00:25:13,344 [Eric] Yep. 00:25:13,344 --> 00:25:18,444 [John] And then thought about the, the cartogra- like bias of the cartographer. What... I don't- 00:25:18,444 --> 00:25:18,564 [Eric] Yeah 00:25:18,564 --> 00:25:20,504 [John] ... what's his phrasing? Whatever his phrasing is for that. 00:25:20,564 --> 00:25:21,044 [Eric] Yeah, yeah. 00:25:21,044 --> 00:25:21,704 [John] I was just thinking- 00:25:21,704 --> 00:25:22,644 [Eric] Consider the cartographer 00:25:22,644 --> 00:25:23,364 [John] ... consider the cartographer. 00:25:23,364 --> 00:25:24,324 [Eric] Yeah. 00:25:24,324 --> 00:25:26,684 [John] I was thinking of the author 00:25:26,684 --> 00:25:30,564 [John] and like ki- like injecting his perspective on things. 00:25:30,624 --> 00:25:30,674 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:25:30,674 --> 00:25:34,814 [John] And then like hearing facts, 'cause like a good biography, they're actually reading other people's accounts and stuff. 00:25:34,814 --> 00:25:34,824 [Eric] Yep. 00:25:34,824 --> 00:25:37,284 [John] And then the, like there'll be a narration kind of on what happened. 00:25:37,284 --> 00:25:37,824 [Eric] Yep. 00:25:37,824 --> 00:25:40,684 [John] And just being like a little frustrated with the char- cartographer. 00:25:40,684 --> 00:25:41,104 [Eric] Mm. 00:25:41,104 --> 00:25:41,964 [John] The author, and be like- 00:25:41,964 --> 00:25:42,804 [Eric] Yeah 00:25:42,804 --> 00:25:47,804 [John] ... "There's, there's nothing you said that was like necessarily like incorrect there, but like I just hear your bias coming through." [laughs] 00:25:47,804 --> 00:25:50,354 [Eric] Totally. Okay. Well, that actually goes to history. 00:25:50,354 --> 00:25:51,274 [John] Oh. Yep. 00:25:51,274 --> 00:25:59,824 [Eric] So I totally agree with that actually, and that to me is one of the fundamentals of what difference- differentiates a good historian or author in general- 00:25:59,824 --> 00:26:00,164 [John] Yes 00:26:00,164 --> 00:26:00,854 [Eric] ... in the context of- 00:26:00,854 --> 00:26:00,854 [John] Right 00:26:00,854 --> 00:26:03,154 [Eric] ... history and especially biographies. 00:26:03,154 --> 00:26:03,244 [John] Right. 00:26:03,244 --> 00:26:04,664 [Eric] Um, 00:26:04,664 --> 00:26:09,364 [Eric] but the more that I have read 00:26:09,364 --> 00:26:14,084 [Eric] history, like the more helpful I find it in my day-to-day. 00:26:14,084 --> 00:26:14,964 [John] Hm. Mm-hmm. 00:26:14,964 --> 00:26:22,644 [Eric] Because there are all these reference points, and, you know, people say history repeats itself, but the quote that I love is, "It doesn't, history doesn't repeat itself-" 00:26:22,644 --> 00:26:22,693 [John] Right 00:26:22,693 --> 00:26:23,464 [Eric] ... "but it rhymes." 00:26:23,464 --> 00:26:24,244 [John] Right. 00:26:24,244 --> 00:26:24,524 [Eric] Um- 00:26:24,524 --> 00:26:26,204 [John] Is that Mark Twain, but not actually Mark Twain? 00:26:26,204 --> 00:26:28,444 [Eric] Mark Twain, but not actually Mark Twain. 00:26:28,444 --> 00:26:28,633 [John] Yeah. 00:26:28,633 --> 00:26:32,784 [Eric] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, it was a psychologist actually, uh- 00:26:32,784 --> 00:26:33,264 [John] So, yeah 00:26:33,264 --> 00:26:34,174 [Eric] ... from the '60s I think. 00:26:34,174 --> 00:26:34,604 [John] That checks. 00:26:34,604 --> 00:26:35,864 [Eric] But Mark Twain had a very similar quote. 00:26:35,864 --> 00:26:36,384 [John] Okay. Yeah. 00:26:36,384 --> 00:26:38,264 [Eric] And I'm actually reading a Mark Twain biography right now. 00:26:38,264 --> 00:26:38,864 [John] Oh, nice. 00:26:38,864 --> 00:26:41,264 [Eric] Yeah. And the author's very unbiased, but- 00:26:41,264 --> 00:26:41,724 [John] Yeah 00:26:41,724 --> 00:26:43,584 [Eric] ... Ron Chernow, he's a pro. Um- 00:26:43,584 --> 00:26:44,944 [John] Yeah. 00:26:44,944 --> 00:26:58,254 [Eric] So, uh, but I think that there's... So if you think about mental models in history, if you study those, you have this sort of core tool set for interpreting complexity all around you. 00:26:58,254 --> 00:26:58,284 [John] Right. 00:26:58,284 --> 00:27:17,434 [Eric] Like in many situations, because you have these reference points, right, or these frameworks with which to sort of navigate complexity. And the more that you develop that muscle, I think the more conviction you can have with, uh, without having to have the complete picture of information, which you almost never have. Right? 00:27:17,434 --> 00:27:17,484 [John] Okay. Yeah. 00:27:17,484 --> 00:27:18,584 [Eric] So it gives you more conviction- 00:27:18,584 --> 00:27:18,594 [John] Right 00:27:18,594 --> 00:27:19,334 [Eric] ... as a decision maker. 00:27:19,334 --> 00:27:21,384 [John] 'Cause you hear, 'cause you hear the rhythm and the rhyme- 00:27:21,384 --> 00:27:21,774 [Eric] You hear the rhythm- 00:27:21,774 --> 00:27:21,774 [John] ... is what you're saying. [laughs] 00:27:21,774 --> 00:27:25,514 [Eric] ... and the rhyme. That's right. Exactly. It sounds familiar. Okay. 00:27:25,514 --> 00:27:25,524 [John] Nice. 00:27:25,524 --> 00:27:26,544 [Eric] So here's my list. 00:27:26,544 --> 00:27:27,044 [John] Yep. 00:27:27,044 --> 00:27:29,184 [Eric] Mastering the basics, business- 00:27:29,184 --> 00:27:29,504 [John] Yep 00:27:29,504 --> 00:27:31,784 [Eric] ... writing, writing and communication- 00:27:31,784 --> 00:27:31,884 [John] Mm-hmm 00:27:31,884 --> 00:27:40,784 [Eric] ... we put those together, product thinking or customer empathy, data, and then mental models and history. What am I missing? Ingredients to the super glue. 00:27:40,784 --> 00:27:44,284 [John] Yeah. Um, 00:27:44,284 --> 00:27:52,384 [John] actually, this is a quote I've been thinking about, um, this week, and I'm not gonna get it right, exactly right, but it is a, um, Peter Drucker quote. 00:27:52,384 --> 00:27:52,704 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:27:52,704 --> 00:28:03,344 [John] And it says, "Two fundamental, um, positions in, in a business are innovation and marketing. Everything else is just cost." And he kind of groups marketing- 00:28:03,344 --> 00:28:03,354 [Eric] Mm 00:28:03,354 --> 00:28:04,204 [John] ... and sales- 00:28:04,204 --> 00:28:04,214 [Eric] Mm 00:28:04,214 --> 00:28:04,744 [John] ... if you like. 00:28:04,744 --> 00:28:05,124 [Eric] Yeah, yeah. 00:28:05,124 --> 00:28:17,824 [John] You know? So like with this, thinking about that framework on this list, you've got the innovation piece, which is like, what are you... [laughs] What is the product? Like what do you do- 00:28:17,824 --> 00:28:18,184 [Eric] Mm 00:28:18,184 --> 00:28:19,824 [John] ... as a business, right? 00:28:19,824 --> 00:28:19,834 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:28:19,834 --> 00:28:25,364 [John] And then, and then the marketing or sales piece, which is the writing and the communication, and you have to understand the business to do that well. 00:28:25,364 --> 00:28:25,584 [Eric] Yep. 00:28:25,584 --> 00:28:28,984 [John] And the, and the data kind of like spans between the two, like- 00:28:28,984 --> 00:28:29,724 [Eric] Mm-hmm 00:28:29,724 --> 00:28:42,784 [John] ... like data can inform the product usage, data can inform the sales messaging, whatever. So I think, I think that's pretty good. I think, I think there are some helpful fundamentals under the business category of like understanding finance. 00:28:42,784 --> 00:28:43,224 [Eric] Yes. 00:28:43,224 --> 00:28:43,644 [John] Um- 00:28:43,644 --> 00:28:43,904 [Eric] Yep 00:28:43,904 --> 00:28:52,124 [John] ... like a little more deeply than, than the basics of just how... L- finance as a discipline, not the financials of the business. So one level- 00:28:52,124 --> 00:28:52,194 [Eric] Mm 00:28:52,194 --> 00:28:55,724 [John] ... of business is like how does a business make money and the strategy and stuff. Great. 00:28:55,724 --> 00:28:55,754 [Eric] Yep. 00:28:55,754 --> 00:28:58,734 [John] But there's another thing which is just the basics of like how finance works- 00:28:58,734 --> 00:28:59,354 [Eric] Yes 00:28:59,354 --> 00:29:03,104 [John] ... and how your industry works financially, not just your business. 00:29:03,104 --> 00:29:03,914 [Eric] Mm. 00:29:03,914 --> 00:29:09,264 [John] 'Cause if you work for a VC-backed startup, it is way different than if you work for a private equity-backed company- 00:29:09,264 --> 00:29:09,514 [Eric] Yep 00:29:09,514 --> 00:29:12,644 [John] ... or a single owner-owned company or a public company. 00:29:12,644 --> 00:29:19,654 [Eric] Sure. Or if you work in a business that has a bunch of inventory and like you run credit lines- 00:29:19,654 --> 00:29:19,654 [John] Yes 00:29:19,654 --> 00:29:20,484 [Eric] ... in order to- 00:29:20,484 --> 00:29:20,684 [John] Yeah 00:29:20,684 --> 00:29:21,464 [Eric] ... to operate, right? 00:29:21,464 --> 00:29:22,024 [John] Sure. Yeah. 00:29:22,024 --> 00:29:22,904 [Eric] Um, you know- 00:29:22,904 --> 00:29:22,914 [John] Yeah 00:29:22,914 --> 00:29:23,764 [Eric] ... totally. 00:29:23,764 --> 00:29:23,794 [John] Yeah. 00:29:23,794 --> 00:29:24,234 [Eric] Totally. 00:29:24,234 --> 00:29:29,864 [John] Yeah. So the, the financial model of the business as it fits into the industry and context that you're in- 00:29:29,864 --> 00:29:30,454 [Eric] Yep 00:29:30,454 --> 00:29:37,524 [John] ... matters. And then even some of the details on like what is an asset, what is a liability, like some actual practical financial details- 00:29:37,524 --> 00:29:38,014 [Eric] Yep 00:29:38,014 --> 00:29:44,094 [John] ... as far as almost at like a record keeping level of like, yeah, I know the basic finances of like this is how we earn money, this is cost, whatever. 00:29:44,094 --> 00:29:44,104 [Eric] Yep. 00:29:44,104 --> 00:29:45,604 [John] But then some of like details. 00:29:45,604 --> 00:29:46,104 [Eric] Yeah. 00:29:46,104 --> 00:29:58,284 [John] I think, I think that would be a piece. Um, and then, um, writing and communication, like there, there's probably... buried in that is, is kind of the, the relationship sales piece. 00:29:58,284 --> 00:29:58,634 [Eric] Yeah. 00:29:58,634 --> 00:29:59,574 [John] And product too actually. 00:29:59,574 --> 00:29:59,604 [Eric] Agreed. 00:29:59,604 --> 00:30:12,134 [John] Like all three of those is... Like you could also pull that out into like thinking about the customer, um, from a like more of like a sales angle, but you kind of cover that in writing communication. So I think my big one would be the, the finance piece. 00:30:12,134 --> 00:30:13,364 [Eric] Yeah. Man, I did a pretty good job. 00:30:13,364 --> 00:30:14,184 [John] Yeah, I think so. 00:30:14,184 --> 00:30:14,584 [Eric] [laughs] 00:30:14,584 --> 00:30:15,684 [John] Yeah. 00:30:15,684 --> 00:30:22,572 [Eric] Uh, okay. The one moreQuick one, um, in... Okay, so 00:30:22,572 --> 00:30:27,252 [Eric] how to develop the superpower, so pursuing your craft, not politics, you know, or- 00:30:27,252 --> 00:30:27,372 [John] Yes 00:30:27,372 --> 00:30:28,132 [Eric] ... said another way- 00:30:28,132 --> 00:30:28,142 [John] Yeah 00:30:28,142 --> 00:30:32,012 [Eric] ... pursuing politics as a means to pursuing your craft. 00:30:32,012 --> 00:30:32,392 [John] Yes. 00:30:32,392 --> 00:30:37,412 [Eric] Uh, mastering the basics. Another big one I've noticed is focus. 00:30:37,412 --> 00:30:38,951 [John] Hmm. Okay. 00:30:38,952 --> 00:30:39,632 [Eric] So- 00:30:39,632 --> 00:30:40,952 [John] Yes. That's a good one 00:30:40,952 --> 00:30:41,932 [Eric] ... the- 00:30:41,932 --> 00:30:42,772 [John] As a superpower 00:30:42,772 --> 00:30:45,872 [Eric] ... people with a superpower 00:30:45,872 --> 00:30:50,182 [Eric] are... This is really interesting. Like, they tend to be very helpful people- 00:30:50,182 --> 00:30:50,532 [John] Right 00:30:50,532 --> 00:30:54,432 [Eric] ... but if you look really closely, they ignore so much. 00:30:54,432 --> 00:30:54,872 [John] Interesting. 00:30:54,872 --> 00:30:57,382 [Eric] I'm not gonna get involved in that, right? Or I'm not gonna touch that. 00:30:57,382 --> 00:30:57,392 [John] Okay. Right. 00:30:57,392 --> 00:31:07,652 [Eric] I'm not gonna, you know... And, um, you know, always happy to help, but not just the most ever presently available people. 00:31:07,652 --> 00:31:08,452 [John] Okay. Yeah. 00:31:08,452 --> 00:31:16,982 [Eric] Um, you know, or even, you know, and just constantly involved, um, because they're working, right? 00:31:16,982 --> 00:31:17,002 [John] Yeah. [laughs] 00:31:17,002 --> 00:31:18,322 [Eric] Because they're honing their craft- 00:31:18,322 --> 00:31:18,322 [John] Yeah. Yeah 00:31:18,322 --> 00:31:19,862 [Eric] ... or they're learning. 00:31:19,862 --> 00:31:19,892 [John] Sure. 00:31:19,892 --> 00:31:24,592 [Eric] Right? Like, um, so that's another big one, and I think that- 00:31:24,592 --> 00:31:24,872 [John] Hmm 00:31:24,872 --> 00:31:30,212 [Eric] ... more than ever because of the digital world that we live in, distractions are available. They've always been available, right? It's not- 00:31:30,212 --> 00:31:30,812 [John] Right 00:31:30,812 --> 00:31:51,942 [Eric] ... that's, you know, that's since the dawn of time there have been, you know, humans are amazing at distracting [laughs] ourselves. Um, but it's really easy to, I think on a personal level, get distracted, right? You know, whether that's, you know, notifications from social media, you know, sort of pick your poison. Doesn't matter. 00:31:51,942 --> 00:31:51,992 [John] Yeah. 00:31:51,992 --> 00:31:57,372 [Eric] Right? Um, professionally, especially in the age of Slack, right? 00:31:57,372 --> 00:31:57,392 [John] Yeah. 00:31:57,392 --> 00:32:01,792 [Eric] It's like you can just constantly be interrupted, right? And so- 00:32:01,792 --> 00:32:01,962 [John] Mm-hmm 00:32:01,962 --> 00:32:11,512 [Eric] ... I've noticed that people with a superpower tend to do things like turn off notifications, right? Like, they just- 00:32:11,512 --> 00:32:11,642 [John] Hmm. Yeah 00:32:11,642 --> 00:32:15,832 [Eric] ... you know, whether that's certain notifications in general 00:32:15,832 --> 00:32:23,052 [Eric] or just go through periods where, like, I'm just not gonna get any Slack notifications, right? And it's like, well, why? Because I'm, I'm focusing on the work. I'm- 00:32:23,052 --> 00:32:23,292 [John] Right 00:32:23,292 --> 00:32:32,092 [Eric] ... you know, sort of... And I think that is really a, a catalyst for the compounding that you talked about, right? 00:32:32,092 --> 00:32:32,552 [John] Yeah. 00:32:32,552 --> 00:32:36,032 [Eric] It's re- another way I would put it is 00:32:36,032 --> 00:32:47,212 [Eric] if you have margin that you're applying to getting faster and better, like the less distracted you are in using that margin, the higher the interest rate- 00:32:47,212 --> 00:32:47,222 [John] Right 00:32:47,222 --> 00:32:51,992 [Eric] ... and, you know, the, the, the more significant the compounding over time. 00:32:51,992 --> 00:32:54,932 [John] Yeah. I think I partially agree with this. 00:32:54,932 --> 00:32:56,232 [Eric] Okay. Challenge me. 00:32:56,232 --> 00:33:15,992 [John] There is, um... I think that's pr- it's pretty highly contextualized 'cause I've been in a couple of situations, and I, I can't think of any, like, g- your exact... I think that is theoretically true. I think there's some practical situations where people might over-index on, like, wanting to be the persona you're describing and not. 00:33:15,992 --> 00:33:16,612 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:33:16,612 --> 00:33:18,412 [John] And they ignore things, and they get in trouble. 00:33:18,412 --> 00:33:19,192 [Eric] Yes. 00:33:19,192 --> 00:33:28,412 [John] So that, that I think is important to, to point out. But, and, and again, like, being in a services business, like, people absolutely value responsiveness, like- 00:33:28,412 --> 00:33:28,482 [Eric] Yes 00:33:28,482 --> 00:33:36,352 [John] ... a lot. Um, so I think that is one, one component to that. But the other component 00:33:36,352 --> 00:33:38,092 [John] is, 00:33:38,092 --> 00:33:49,972 [John] which I think is what you're talking about, people that work... To me, t- the most helpful way for me to think about it is work organization. If I work off the top of my inbox and off of my Slack 00:33:49,972 --> 00:33:50,442 [John] threads- 00:33:50,442 --> 00:33:50,442 [Eric] Yes 00:33:50,442 --> 00:33:51,692 [John] ... and that's how I work- 00:33:51,692 --> 00:33:52,132 [Eric] Yeah. Yep 00:33:52,192 --> 00:33:55,272 [John] ... then, like, that is a way to be extremely inefficient and non-productive. 00:33:55,272 --> 00:33:56,792 [Eric] Right. It creates thrash. 00:33:56,792 --> 00:34:02,992 [John] Yeah. Yeah. So that, that, that for sure is a problem 'cause I'm never prioritizing anything. I'm just working off the top of my inbox or my Slack- 00:34:02,992 --> 00:34:03,172 [Eric] Yep 00:34:03,172 --> 00:34:14,092 [John] ... whatever, number one. And then number two, as far as the notifications, like, whatever downtime, I, I think that really depends on the company context. I personally- 00:34:14,092 --> 00:34:14,102 [Eric] Yep 00:34:14,102 --> 00:34:19,652 [John] ... just have blocks of time when nobody's gonna need me, and that's when I get deep work done. 00:34:19,652 --> 00:34:20,172 [Eric] Yep. 00:34:20,172 --> 00:34:21,572 [John] Like, early in the morning. 00:34:21,572 --> 00:34:23,062 [Eric] Yeah. Totally. 00:34:23,062 --> 00:34:23,092 [John] Which- 00:34:23,092 --> 00:34:23,742 [Eric] I think that's really common 00:34:23,742 --> 00:34:28,592 [John] ... or, like, other times in my career, like, later at night, which doesn't work very well right now. [laughs] 00:34:28,592 --> 00:34:28,872 [Eric] Yeah. 00:34:28,872 --> 00:34:29,692 [John] So early in the morning. 00:34:29,692 --> 00:34:29,992 [Eric] Yes. Yes. 00:34:29,992 --> 00:34:38,932 [John] Um, so I think, I think that, that is the most practical thing, and then, and then just learning and being really attentive 00:34:38,932 --> 00:34:43,611 [John] to the, like, all right, when are the other blocks that I can get 00:34:43,612 --> 00:34:48,172 [John] as far as, like, managing this, like, responsiveness, keeping other people unblocked. 00:34:48,172 --> 00:34:48,732 [Eric] Yep. 00:34:48,732 --> 00:34:55,932 [John] Uh, and, and it depends on your role. Like, if you're a manager, like, you gotta be careful. Like, if you're too unavailable and your people are constantly getting blocked, like, that's a real problem. 00:34:55,932 --> 00:34:56,851 [Eric] Totally. Totally. 00:34:56,852 --> 00:34:56,932 [John] If- 00:34:56,932 --> 00:35:02,851 [Eric] But I, I would also... I, I would categorize that as understanding the system when we said politics, but, like- 00:35:02,852 --> 00:35:03,332 [John] Yeah 00:35:03,332 --> 00:35:03,672 [Eric] ... what are the re- 00:35:03,672 --> 00:35:04,172 [John] Means to an end 00:35:04,172 --> 00:35:05,252 [Eric] ... what are the requirements- 00:35:05,252 --> 00:35:05,262 [John] Yeah. Yeah 00:35:05,262 --> 00:35:06,222 [Eric] ... of the system? 00:35:06,222 --> 00:35:06,322 [John] Yeah. Totally. 00:35:06,322 --> 00:35:07,772 [Eric] You know? Because you can't just- 00:35:07,772 --> 00:35:08,522 [John] Yeah. [clears throat] 00:35:08,522 --> 00:35:13,812 [Eric] You know, you're right. In theory, like, I can just go off into a hole and get a bunch of stuff done and then come back and say, like- 00:35:13,812 --> 00:35:14,062 [John] Yeah 00:35:14,062 --> 00:35:14,532 [Eric] ... "Hey, this is great." 00:35:14,532 --> 00:35:14,612 [John] Yeah. 00:35:14,612 --> 00:35:16,742 [Eric] Right? But that's not how companies actually work. 00:35:16,742 --> 00:35:31,052 [John] But okay, here's my best way to communicate this, I think. The, your, um, description is 100%, um, correct as far as reality, but the outside perception in is you look like everybody else- 00:35:31,052 --> 00:35:32,552 [Eric] Hmm 00:35:32,552 --> 00:35:33,272 [John] ... or close. 00:35:33,272 --> 00:35:34,312 [Eric] Yes. Yep. 00:35:34,312 --> 00:35:35,812 [John] And that is the magic. 00:35:35,812 --> 00:35:46,712 [Eric] That is the magic, and I think that's the superpower. And going back to compounding, the... if you can do good work really fast, you have the ability to do that more than most people. 00:35:46,712 --> 00:35:47,192 [John] Right. 00:35:47,192 --> 00:35:47,342 [Eric] Right? 00:35:47,342 --> 00:35:47,402 [John] Right. 00:35:47,402 --> 00:35:51,052 [Eric] Where it's like, okay, this person's, like, very present, but they're also, like, producing a lot, and it's like- 00:35:51,052 --> 00:35:51,192 [John] Right 00:35:51,192 --> 00:35:53,911 [Eric] ... well, it's because you're strategically... You understand the system. 00:35:53,912 --> 00:35:54,512 [John] Mm-hmm. 00:35:54,512 --> 00:35:57,472 [Eric] You understand the requirements around optics. You- 00:35:57,472 --> 00:35:57,812 [John] Right 00:35:57,812 --> 00:36:05,972 [Eric] ... and you know where to s- and then when you actually do get your heads down time, you know, like early in the morning or whatever, you're phenomenally productive. 00:36:05,972 --> 00:36:06,712 [John] Right. 00:36:06,712 --> 00:36:06,802 [Eric] Right? 00:36:06,802 --> 00:36:06,892 [John] Right. 00:36:06,892 --> 00:36:07,272 [Eric] So- 00:36:07,272 --> 00:36:07,472 [John] Yeah 00:36:07,472 --> 00:36:08,012 [Eric] ... I agree. 00:36:08,012 --> 00:36:17,012 [John] But yeah, but, but I think what people get wrong about this is they hear a podcast like this, like, "Yeah, I'm gonna do that," and, and [laughs] then they, like, go heads down for, like, eight hours and, like- 00:36:17,012 --> 00:36:17,112 [Eric] Right 00:36:17,112 --> 00:36:20,552 [John] ... maybe they're really productive personally, like, ignore all sorts of important stuff, and- 00:36:20,552 --> 00:36:20,662 [Eric] Right 00:36:20,662 --> 00:36:21,792 [John] ... they're like, "Well, it doesn't work for me." 00:36:21,792 --> 00:36:22,272 [Eric] Right. 00:36:22,272 --> 00:36:25,434 [John] Like, the magic is the, like-... is, is the two-part thing. 00:36:25,434 --> 00:36:25,444 [Eric] Yes. 00:36:25,444 --> 00:36:31,543 [John] It's like, hey, you, you look just about like everybody else as far as responsiveness and being available, but somehow you're getting like way more done. 00:36:31,544 --> 00:36:32,403 [Eric] Yeah, totally. 00:36:32,404 --> 00:36:32,504 [John] Yeah. 00:36:32,504 --> 00:36:40,044 [Eric] Totally. There is also a currency, I think, as well, where if you are 00:36:40,044 --> 00:36:41,504 [Eric] extremely productive- 00:36:41,504 --> 00:36:42,064 [John] Mm 00:36:42,064 --> 00:36:44,284 [Eric] ... then you can push the- 00:36:44,284 --> 00:36:44,294 [John] Yeah 00:36:44,294 --> 00:36:47,844 [Eric] ... push the boundaries of looking like everyone else slightly more. 00:36:47,844 --> 00:36:50,344 [John] Yeah, you can... Yeah, you can earn, you can earn some extras. 00:36:50,344 --> 00:36:50,504 [Eric] Yes. 00:36:50,504 --> 00:36:50,854 [John] Yeah. 00:36:50,854 --> 00:36:50,864 [Eric] Yes. 00:36:50,864 --> 00:36:51,384 [John] Yeah, I agree. 00:36:51,384 --> 00:36:52,544 [Eric] There are affordances there. 00:36:52,544 --> 00:36:52,703 [John] Yeah. Yeah. 00:36:52,704 --> 00:37:11,384 [Eric] Uh, okay. Let's close this out. Okay, so that's great, but what are the downsides of this? 'Cause when I started talking with you about this concept, as I've considered these people that I've observed over the course of my career, you... I listed a couple downsides, but you immediately, in the first couple minutes of me bringing this up to you- 00:37:11,384 --> 00:37:11,394 [John] Uh-huh 00:37:11,394 --> 00:37:12,604 [Eric] ... I think it was a couple weeks ago- 00:37:12,604 --> 00:37:13,464 [John] Okay 00:37:13,464 --> 00:37:23,464 [Eric] ... when we were walking up to get coffee, uh, you were like, "Yeah, but it's... You know, if you have the superpower, like, there are some drawbacks." So what- 00:37:23,464 --> 00:37:26,054 [John] With great, with great power comes great responsibility. [laughs] 00:37:26,054 --> 00:37:27,624 [Eric] Yes. So what were you thinking? Do you remember- 00:37:27,624 --> 00:37:28,034 [John] Uh, yeah 00:37:28,034 --> 00:37:29,504 [Eric] ... what you specifically thought about that in that conversation? 00:37:29,504 --> 00:37:31,544 [John] I was. I was thinking about the movie Limitless. 00:37:31,544 --> 00:37:32,524 [Eric] Ah. 00:37:32,524 --> 00:37:33,184 [John] Do you remember that movie? 00:37:33,184 --> 00:37:33,964 [Eric] Yeah. Oh, yeah. 00:37:33,964 --> 00:37:36,924 [John] Yeah, yeah. And I think there was like a TV show, too, but I'm thinking about the movie. 00:37:36,924 --> 00:37:37,143 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:37:37,144 --> 00:37:40,524 [John] So the id- you know, the idea is this guy finds this, like, miracle-type drug- 00:37:40,524 --> 00:37:40,534 [Eric] Mm-hmm 00:37:40,534 --> 00:37:48,204 [John] ... and he can just, like, work at an incredibly fast, accurate speed, and, like, just... It's just his, like, crazy superpower. 00:37:48,204 --> 00:37:48,644 [Eric] Yep. 00:37:48,644 --> 00:38:08,564 [John] Um, and then, and then he, like, can't find it, and he gets withdrawal symptoms, and it's like, that's kind of the tension, right? It's like how do I, like, how do I keep this drug, like, forever? And I, I think AI, like, there's a version of that, and a version of the, like, consequences, and, like, currently no, like, real remedy as far as [laughs] like how ... You know. 00:38:08,564 --> 00:38:08,643 [Eric] Yeah. 00:38:08,644 --> 00:38:09,724 [John] How, how can I have everything? 00:38:09,724 --> 00:38:10,284 [Eric] Yeah, yeah. 00:38:10,284 --> 00:38:21,244 [John] So that's what I think about. I think the interesting thing, and people have said this, um, like develop- developers have said this, is like they're starting to feel stress when their agents aren't working. 00:38:21,244 --> 00:38:21,624 [Eric] Mm. 00:38:21,624 --> 00:38:28,524 [John] So there's a stress to, like, keep a pipe line of work going for these things that are having this exponential, like, takeoff- 00:38:28,524 --> 00:38:28,844 [Eric] Mm 00:38:28,844 --> 00:38:30,304 [John] ... of productivity and ability. 00:38:30,304 --> 00:38:30,964 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:38:30,964 --> 00:38:38,623 [John] And eventually, like, stress could get really high for people if they feel like it needs to be working 24/7. Like, how do you possibly get enough tasks for it, for it to do? 00:38:38,624 --> 00:38:39,403 [Eric] Right. 00:38:39,404 --> 00:38:56,224 [John] Um, so I think that, that's an interesting thing which could definitely lead, lead to burnout. Um, another thing that I've heard of people doing similar to that is, like, assigning all these tasks, like having it work them, and then, like, pinging you if it needs help. Like, can you imagine, like, dozens of things, like, asking you? 00:38:56,224 --> 00:38:56,433 [Eric] Yeah. 00:38:56,433 --> 00:39:02,724 [John] And, and let's say they're, they're even like, they're real, legitimate questions. Like, let's say you get past the, like, it's asking you dumb things. 00:39:02,724 --> 00:39:03,394 [Eric] Yep. 00:39:03,394 --> 00:39:08,344 [John] And you have this barrage all day of, like, AIs asking you for approval to do things- 00:39:08,344 --> 00:39:08,574 [Eric] Mm-hmm 00:39:08,574 --> 00:39:13,364 [John] ... for, like, "What do you think about this?" Like, constantly. Like, that could lead to burnout. 00:39:13,364 --> 00:39:14,064 [Eric] Yeah, yeah. Totally. 00:39:14,064 --> 00:39:14,584 [John] For sure. 00:39:14,584 --> 00:39:15,284 [Eric] Totally. 00:39:15,284 --> 00:39:16,544 [John] Um, 00:39:16,544 --> 00:39:17,924 [John] I don't know. That's kind of top of mind. 00:39:17,924 --> 00:39:23,324 [Eric] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think that the... You know, 00:39:23,384 --> 00:39:39,153 [Eric] I think if you create the compounding interest, there... I think one of the things that I would... I, I agree with everything you said. Another way I would describe it is like where's the stopping point? Like, where do you force... Where do you... When is, when do you stop accruing compound interest, right? 00:39:39,153 --> 00:39:39,164 [John] Mm-hmm. 00:39:39,164 --> 00:39:41,104 [Eric] And I mean, of course, there are, like, physical limits to that, right? 00:39:41,104 --> 00:39:42,124 [John] Sure. 00:39:42,124 --> 00:39:46,254 [Eric] Um, but how do you find balance, right? 00:39:46,254 --> 00:39:46,284 [John] Right. 00:39:46,284 --> 00:39:49,314 [Eric] When do you... Like, when do you draw a limit and say, like- 00:39:49,314 --> 00:39:49,314 [John] Right 00:39:49,314 --> 00:39:51,213 [Eric] ... "Okay, you know, this is enough," right? 00:39:51,213 --> 00:39:51,284 [John] Yeah. 00:39:51,284 --> 00:39:52,963 [Eric] Um, 00:39:52,964 --> 00:39:57,164 [Eric] you know, which can be difficult. I also think the other thing is 00:39:57,164 --> 00:40:02,744 [Eric] very, very practically, I think people with a superpower can get into awkward career situations. 00:40:02,744 --> 00:40:03,124 [John] Okay. 00:40:03,124 --> 00:40:05,474 [Eric] It's like, "Well, I don't know if I wanna be a manager. I don't..." 00:40:05,474 --> 00:40:05,484 [John] Right. 00:40:05,484 --> 00:40:09,213 [Eric] You know, like, "Where do I go with my career?" You know? So, like, you're super productive, but then- 00:40:09,213 --> 00:40:09,213 [John] Right 00:40:09,213 --> 00:40:12,644 [Eric] ... you're sort of stuck in, like, a, just an awkward, like- 00:40:12,644 --> 00:40:12,744 [John] Right 00:40:12,744 --> 00:40:17,264 [Eric] ... you know. And, and sometimes even the company that you work for is like, 00:40:17,264 --> 00:40:22,204 [Eric] "I don't know what we'd do th- without this person, but I don't really know what we should do with this person." [laughs] 00:40:22,204 --> 00:40:31,954 [John] Yeah. Yeah. Well, and here's a... Yeah, here's another funny analogy I just thought of. I think we're in the era of the, like, the OG superhero movie era. 00:40:31,954 --> 00:40:32,044 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:40:32,044 --> 00:40:33,274 [John] We have Spider-Man and Batman- 00:40:33,274 --> 00:40:33,274 [Eric] Mm-hmm, mm-hmm 00:40:33,274 --> 00:40:37,684 [John] ... whatever. And I think nobody know, nobody yet knows what the Avengers looks like. 00:40:37,684 --> 00:40:38,604 [Eric] Yeah. 00:40:38,604 --> 00:40:40,904 [John] How do you have all these people with superpowers together- 00:40:40,904 --> 00:40:40,914 [Eric] Yeah 00:40:40,914 --> 00:40:43,183 [John] ... like, pulling in the same direction and doing the right thing? 00:40:43,183 --> 00:40:43,864 [Eric] Yeah. Yeah. 00:40:43,864 --> 00:40:49,994 [John] Like that, I don't think people... I don't think... I think we barely know what the other thing looks like, but we definitely don't seem to know what that looks like. 00:40:49,994 --> 00:40:50,004 [Eric] Yeah. 00:40:50,004 --> 00:40:51,304 [John] What do the Avengers look like here? 00:40:51,304 --> 00:40:52,064 [Eric] Yeah. 00:40:52,064 --> 00:40:52,644 [John] Um... 00:40:52,644 --> 00:40:59,324 [Eric] I agree. All righty, the superpower. You have the list. 00:40:59,324 --> 00:40:59,644 [John] Yeah. 00:40:59,644 --> 00:41:00,814 [Eric] Go forth. [laughs] 00:41:00,814 --> 00:41:02,384 [John] [laughs] 00:41:02,384 --> 00:41:02,904 [Eric] All right. 00:41:02,904 --> 00:41:03,034 [John] All right. 00:41:03,034 --> 00:41:15,464 [Eric] Thanks for listening. We'll catch you on the next episode. [upbeat music]