Why the longest-running tech CEO still fears failure

00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:16,950 [Eric] [upbeat music] Welcome back to the "Token Intelligent Show." And today, John, this is going to be a little bit meta. 00:00:16,950 --> 00:00:16,990 [John] All right. 00:00:16,990 --> 00:00:21,940 [Eric] This is podcast inception because our podcast episode is going to be about- 00:00:21,940 --> 00:00:22,880 [John] About a podcast episode 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:24,410 [Eric] ... about a podcast episode- 00:00:24,410 --> 00:00:24,460 [John] Yes 00:00:24,460 --> 00:00:26,120 [Eric] ... on a separate podcast. [chuckles] 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:27,140 [John] Awesome. 00:00:27,140 --> 00:00:28,280 [Eric] You told me about this. 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:29,060 [John] I did. 00:00:29,060 --> 00:00:29,260 [Eric] Yeah. 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,240 [Eric] What's the episode, and how did you originally find it? I didn't even ask you. 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:36,120 [John] I don't remember how I originally found it. 00:00:37,260 --> 00:00:41,320 [John] So it's an episode interview of [lips smack] Jensen Huang. 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:41,560 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:43,220 [John] Who's the CEO of NVIDIA. 00:00:43,220 --> 00:00:43,820 [Eric] Yep. 00:00:43,820 --> 00:00:45,640 [John] Longest standing tech CEO. 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:46,410 [Eric] Longest- 00:00:46,410 --> 00:00:46,410 [John] I believe 00:00:46,410 --> 00:00:48,220 [Eric] ... standing tech CEO. 00:00:48,220 --> 00:00:49,480 [John] 20 something years. 00:00:49,480 --> 00:00:49,610 [Eric] 30. 00:00:49,610 --> 00:00:51,089 [John] 30 years. 30 full years. 00:00:51,089 --> 00:00:51,120 [Eric] 30 years. 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:51,400 [John] Yeah. 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:52,750 [Eric] If I remember correctly from the episode. 00:00:52,750 --> 00:00:54,840 [John] Yeah. I think you're right, 30 years. 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,760 [Eric] Which is incredible. 00:00:57,760 --> 00:00:58,400 [John] It is, and I 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:01,080 [John] could just be out of touch here, but I don't 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:07,860 [John] remember seeing... I think part of what piqued my interest is I don't feel like I've seen a lot of interviews with him- 00:01:07,860 --> 00:01:08,230 [Eric] Hmm 00:01:08,230 --> 00:01:10,100 [John] ... until more recently. 00:01:10,100 --> 00:01:11,240 [Eric] Okay. 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:12,500 [John] I could just be out of touch, though. I don't know. 00:01:12,500 --> 00:01:13,539 [Eric] You could be out of touch. 00:01:13,540 --> 00:01:15,700 [John] Is he somebody you've seen on YouTube or 00:01:17,300 --> 00:01:21,320 [John] other places, like interviews or clips on a regular basis until like the couple- 00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:21,340 [Eric] No 00:01:21,340 --> 00:01:22,000 [John] ... past couple years? 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:27,380 [Eric] But I'm more sheltered even than you when it comes to [chuckles] the latest tech news. 00:01:27,380 --> 00:01:27,760 [John] Yeah. 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:28,899 [Eric] I have a narrower window- 00:01:28,900 --> 00:01:29,250 [John] That's funny 00:01:29,250 --> 00:01:30,740 [Eric] ... than people probably think, but- 00:01:30,740 --> 00:01:30,880 [John] Yeah 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:34,500 [Eric] ... the things that come to mind are quotes. 00:01:35,700 --> 00:01:37,820 [Eric] What he says carries a lot of weight- 00:01:37,820 --> 00:01:37,830 [John] Yes 00:01:37,830 --> 00:01:44,100 [Eric] ... especially, it really has for a long time, but particularly in the age of AI, he- 00:01:44,100 --> 00:01:45,480 [John] Yeah 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:54,880 [Eric] ... is a major, I was going to say voice, but that's not strong enough. The strategic decisions that they make have a really big impact- 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:54,930 [John] Right 00:01:54,930 --> 00:01:56,880 [Eric] ... industry-wide, because there are a lot of downstream effects. 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:04,520 [John] Well, and it seems, and the thing that I like and that I look for in these things are how do the competitors speak about- 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:04,580 [Eric] Hmm 00:02:04,580 --> 00:02:08,350 [John] ... somebody he's competing with, his frenemies, how do they speak about him? 00:02:08,350 --> 00:02:08,640 [Eric] Oh, yeah. Yeah. 00:02:08,640 --> 00:02:09,979 [John] And pretty highly- 00:02:09,979 --> 00:02:09,989 [Eric] Yeah 00:02:09,989 --> 00:02:11,650 [John] ... from everything I've seen as far as news- 00:02:11,650 --> 00:02:11,650 [Eric] Yeah 00:02:11,650 --> 00:02:12,280 [John] ... coverage. 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:12,840 [Eric] Yeah. 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,220 [John] Obviously, we don't know the full behind the scenes, but- 00:02:15,220 --> 00:02:15,250 [Eric] Yeah 00:02:15,250 --> 00:02:17,260 [John] ... the people that are in his frenemy- 00:02:17,260 --> 00:02:17,700 [Eric] Mm-hmm 00:02:17,700 --> 00:02:18,760 [John] ... territory seem to speak- 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:18,780 [Eric] Mm-hmm 00:02:18,780 --> 00:02:20,040 [John] ... pretty highly of him. 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:25,480 [Eric] Well, we were talking with a local guy just earlier this week- 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:25,760 [John] Mm-hmm 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:31,500 [Eric] ... which we should probably do an episode on this, but we got him set up on OpenClaw. 00:02:31,500 --> 00:02:32,160 [John] Oh, right. 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:32,300 [Eric] Right? 00:02:32,300 --> 00:02:32,440 [John] Yeah. 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:36,380 [Eric] So he's an older guy. He's not retired- 00:02:36,380 --> 00:02:36,390 [John] Right 00:02:36,390 --> 00:02:38,800 [Eric] ... but has been very successful in real estate. 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:38,820 [John] Yeah. Right. 00:02:38,820 --> 00:02:40,920 [Eric] So has a very large real estate company. 00:02:40,920 --> 00:02:41,940 [John] Right. 00:02:41,940 --> 00:02:46,120 [Eric] [lips smack] And it was so fun to talk to him. 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:46,600 [John] Mm-hmm. 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:48,359 [Eric] And Jensen Huang came up. 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:48,660 [John] Yep. 00:02:48,660 --> 00:02:52,100 [Eric] It was fun to talk to him because we just started talking about AI, and he's- 00:02:52,100 --> 00:02:52,150 [John] Mm-hmm 00:02:52,150 --> 00:02:54,820 [Eric] ... the most advanced person at his real estate firm- 00:02:54,820 --> 00:02:55,020 [John] Yeah 00:02:55,020 --> 00:02:56,040 [Eric] ... using AI. 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:56,560 [John] Yeah. 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:58,240 [Eric] Which was shocking. And then- 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,540 [John] Maybe in town outside of tech people. 00:03:00,540 --> 00:03:02,380 [Eric] Maybe in town outside of tech people. It was- 00:03:02,380 --> 00:03:02,470 [John] Yeah 00:03:02,470 --> 00:03:03,100 [Eric] ... amazing. 00:03:03,100 --> 00:03:03,440 [John] That's cool. 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:03,829 [Eric] And 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,880 [Eric] Jensen Huang came up because- 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:09,890 [John] Mm-hmm 00:03:09,890 --> 00:03:11,480 [Eric] ... he talked about meeting Sam Altman. 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:12,500 [John] Yeah. That's right. 00:03:12,500 --> 00:03:13,740 [Eric] Which was- 00:03:13,740 --> 00:03:13,750 [John] Great 00:03:13,750 --> 00:03:15,020 [Eric] ... I was like, "Okay." 00:03:15,020 --> 00:03:15,240 [John] Right. 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,820 [Eric] He met Sam Altman out on the West Coast- 00:03:18,820 --> 00:03:18,890 [John] Yeah 00:03:18,890 --> 00:03:19,910 [Eric] ... at some event, which was like- 00:03:19,910 --> 00:03:19,910 [John] Yeah. 00:03:19,910 --> 00:03:23,280 [Eric] "Wow, that's really crazy." And then Jensen Huang came up, and he 00:03:25,780 --> 00:03:28,900 [Eric] had really good things to say about Jensen Huang. He didn't say- 00:03:28,900 --> 00:03:28,910 [John] Right 00:03:28,910 --> 00:03:30,400 [Eric] ... that he's met Jensen Huang. 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:30,560 [John] Right. 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:36,640 [Eric] But if he is in circles where he's interacting with Sam Altman- 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:36,650 [John] Right 00:03:36,650 --> 00:03:38,580 [Eric] ... my guess would be that he probably has decent- 00:03:38,580 --> 00:03:39,480 [John] Those people that know him best. 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:41,840 [Eric] Yeah. He probably has better insight than you and I. 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:41,980 [John] Well- 00:03:41,980 --> 00:03:44,280 [Eric] But we're going to disregard that and just armchair quarterback- 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:44,840 [John] Yeah 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:46,280 [Eric] ... our take from a podcast. [chuckles] 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:54,310 [John] Yeah, but one other tidbit there, I really enjoy meeting people in real estate because especially, he's been doing it for, I don't know, probably maybe 40 years at this point. 00:03:54,310 --> 00:03:54,310 [Eric] Yeah. 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:57,880 [John] Part of that job is getting a good sense for people. 00:03:57,880 --> 00:03:58,400 [Eric] Yes. 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:02,100 [John] That'd be any sales job, but especially real estate. It's very, very, very heavy- 00:04:02,100 --> 00:04:02,109 [Eric] Yeah 00:04:02,109 --> 00:04:02,579 [John] ... relational. 00:04:02,580 --> 00:04:03,240 [Eric] Yep. 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:05,700 [John] And I tend to respect those people's opinions- 00:04:05,700 --> 00:04:06,060 [Eric] Totally 00:04:06,060 --> 00:04:08,040 [John] ... for hot takes on people just because they have- 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:08,340 [Eric] Yes 00:04:08,340 --> 00:04:09,260 [John] ... so many reps. 00:04:09,260 --> 00:04:10,760 [Eric] There's so many reps- 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:10,870 [John] Yeah 00:04:10,870 --> 00:04:11,780 [Eric] ... and they're a really good read. 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:13,200 [John] Yeah. 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,980 [Eric] Okay. So how did you originally find the episode? 00:04:15,980 --> 00:04:23,039 [John] Yeah. [lips smack] It piqued my interest. I just saw it on Spotify or YouTube, I think. 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:23,780 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:04:23,780 --> 00:04:25,100 [John] A Joe Rogan episode. 00:04:25,100 --> 00:04:25,500 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:04:25,500 --> 00:04:28,780 [John] And piqued my interest because I was like, "Oh, I know of this guy. I've heard him quoted, but- 00:04:28,780 --> 00:04:28,900 [Eric] Yep 00:04:28,900 --> 00:04:30,830 [John] ... I've never heard a long-form interview with him," 00:04:31,980 --> 00:04:37,160 [John] of Jensen Huang. [lips smack] And then NVIDIA has been a big deal with chips. They hit 00:04:38,540 --> 00:04:44,120 [John] miraculously hit two waves perfectly. They hit crypto, which helped them a ton- 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:44,400 [Eric] Mm-hmm 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:46,770 [John] ... so they manufacture 00:04:48,039 --> 00:04:48,820 [John] [lips smack] 00:04:49,860 --> 00:04:50,240 [John] I'm trying to 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:53,680 [John] frame this in a good everyday language, 00:04:54,940 --> 00:04:57,340 [John] GPU, but graphics cards- 00:04:57,340 --> 00:04:57,469 [Eric] Yeah 00:04:57,469 --> 00:04:58,860 [John] ... would be the best way to describe it. 00:04:58,860 --> 00:04:59,720 [Eric] Yep. 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:01,380 [John] They got started in video gaming- 00:05:01,380 --> 00:05:01,600 [Eric] Yep 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:01,920 [John] ... which we'll talk about that. 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,020 [Eric] That was the first wave, really. So there was sort of the- 00:05:04,020 --> 00:05:04,140 [John] Sure 00:05:04,140 --> 00:05:05,480 [Eric] ... gaming graphics- 00:05:07,340 --> 00:05:07,350 [John] Sure 00:05:07,350 --> 00:05:08,840 [Eric] ... video world- 00:05:08,840 --> 00:05:09,000 [John] Yeah 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,659 [Eric] ... where people were using PCs to create video, play games, all that sort of stuff. 00:05:12,660 --> 00:05:12,780 [John] Right. 00:05:12,780 --> 00:05:13,570 [Eric] And NVIDIA was the 00:05:15,580 --> 00:05:16,340 [Eric] go-to for- 00:05:16,340 --> 00:05:16,469 [John] Yeah 00:05:16,469 --> 00:05:18,230 [Eric] ... building high-power computers- 00:05:18,230 --> 00:05:18,230 [John] Yeah 00:05:18,230 --> 00:05:19,000 [Eric] ... that were doing graphics. 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:23,920 [John] Yeah, but over the last 10 or 15 years, they perfectly hit two waves. One was crypto. 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:24,320 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:28,860 [John] So their hardware you would use to mine Bitcoin, for example. 00:05:28,860 --> 00:05:29,780 [Eric] Yep. 00:05:29,780 --> 00:05:38,880 [John] And then as that kind of went down, they rode the AI wave up to an even higher height of training AI models. 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:39,200 [Eric] Yep. 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,600 [John] So at the time of that, nobody could've planned that. 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:42,380 [Eric] Incredible. 00:05:42,380 --> 00:05:44,920 [John] So it's been obviously really good for their company. 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:52,300 [John] And anyways, but what I want to talk about is let's trace some of the story there- 00:05:52,300 --> 00:05:52,310 [Eric] Yep 00:05:52,310 --> 00:06:12,180 [John] ... because I think there's some really interesting tidbits that he shares on the show about NVIDIA getting started, how they almost failed a couple of times, and then [lips smack] into some of the AI stuff. So I don't know, do you remember at the beginning where they're talking, that story they shared about the very genesis of the company- 00:06:12,180 --> 00:06:12,440 [Eric] Mm-hmm 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,520 [John] ... and where they almost failed? 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,960 [Eric] Yes. And it's great that you said genesis because it was- 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:20,220 [John] [chuckles] That's true 00:06:20,220 --> 00:06:21,320 [Eric] ... because- 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:21,820 [John] That was not even intentional 00:06:21,820 --> 00:06:27,270 [Eric] ... the story... This is amazing, actually, and I think this is one of my biggest takeaways from the episode. 00:06:27,270 --> 00:06:27,410 [John] Mm-hmm. 00:06:28,488 --> 00:06:32,427 [Eric] But I will briefly retell the story, and you can keep me honest if I miss any of the details. 00:06:32,428 --> 00:06:32,648 [John] Yeah. 00:06:32,648 --> 00:06:32,788 [Eric] But 00:06:33,888 --> 00:06:36,768 [Eric] they were building 00:06:37,848 --> 00:06:42,668 [Eric] a processing unit for the company Sega. 00:06:42,668 --> 00:06:43,908 [John] Yes. 00:06:43,908 --> 00:06:46,178 [Eric] And man, do you remember the Sega Genesis- 00:06:46,178 --> 00:06:46,178 [John] Of course 00:06:46,178 --> 00:06:46,548 [Eric] ... when it came out? 00:06:46,548 --> 00:06:47,888 [John] Of course. Mortal Kombat- 00:06:47,888 --> 00:06:48,158 [Eric] Yeah. Sonic 00:06:48,158 --> 00:06:49,268 [John] ... and Sonic. 00:06:49,268 --> 00:06:50,218 [Eric] Yeah. Sonic was a big one. 00:06:50,218 --> 00:06:50,678 [John] You had like two of the big ones. Yeah. 00:06:53,208 --> 00:06:58,348 [Eric] Which is funny because my kids, there are Sonic movies that have come out in the past couple years. 00:06:58,348 --> 00:06:58,588 [John] Oh, right. Right. 00:06:58,588 --> 00:07:00,768 [Eric] They go, "I played that on a [chuckles] Sega." 00:07:00,768 --> 00:07:00,838 [John] Right. 00:07:00,838 --> 00:07:01,568 [Eric] And you're like, "What?" 00:07:01,568 --> 00:07:02,438 [John] Yeah. 00:07:02,438 --> 00:07:04,108 [Eric] "Wait, what? You knew about this?" 00:07:04,108 --> 00:07:05,588 [John] [laughs] 00:07:05,588 --> 00:07:05,958 [Eric] Anyways, 00:07:09,268 --> 00:07:12,778 [Eric] Sega was a huge customer. They signed a huge contract with them, 00:07:13,828 --> 00:07:25,638 [Eric] and they realized that they had made the wrong bet on... Yeah. They made the wrong bet on the way that they were solving- 00:07:25,638 --> 00:07:25,788 [John] Right 00:07:25,788 --> 00:07:28,318 [Eric] ... the problem in some function of the chip. 00:07:28,318 --> 00:07:31,748 [John] Yeah. When he walked through, I think there were three components. 00:07:31,748 --> 00:07:32,048 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:07:32,048 --> 00:07:35,108 [John] So it's a very competitive industry at that time- 00:07:35,108 --> 00:07:35,118 [Eric] Yeah 00:07:35,118 --> 00:07:47,088 [John] ... with graphics. I think their original idea was, "Hey, we want to take the high level ideas, we want to take these games from the game consoles and have you be able to use a PC to play them." 00:07:47,088 --> 00:07:47,268 [Eric] Yes. 00:07:47,268 --> 00:07:48,538 [John] That was the high level concept. 00:07:48,538 --> 00:07:48,888 [Eric] Yes. Yep. 00:07:48,888 --> 00:07:54,748 [John] I think there were three different bets. I don't know enough about the technology to go into them, but he's like, "We took three different bets- 00:07:54,748 --> 00:07:54,968 [Eric] Mm-hmm 00:07:54,968 --> 00:07:56,928 [John] ... but all three were kind of contrarian. 00:07:56,928 --> 00:07:57,488 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:07:57,488 --> 00:08:00,848 [John] And we got all three of them wrong." So they were basically in- 00:08:00,848 --> 00:08:01,048 [Eric] Yes 00:08:01,048 --> 00:08:03,328 [John] ... dead last is the right thing to do. 00:08:03,328 --> 00:08:03,948 [Eric] Yes. 00:08:03,948 --> 00:08:06,328 [John] And then they had this major contract they had to deliver on with- 00:08:06,328 --> 00:08:06,538 [Eric] Right 00:08:06,538 --> 00:08:07,008 [John] ... with Sega. 00:08:07,008 --> 00:08:07,488 [Eric] With Sega. A 00:08:12,108 --> 00:08:15,128 [Eric] couple of things to happen. Well, I'll finish the story and then we can talk- 00:08:15,128 --> 00:08:15,228 [John] Yeah 00:08:15,228 --> 00:08:16,748 [Eric] ... about how incredible this is. 00:08:19,208 --> 00:08:24,768 [Eric] He realizes this is not going to work, we made the wrong decision here. 00:08:24,768 --> 00:08:25,128 [John] Yes. Right. 00:08:25,128 --> 00:08:27,358 [Eric] We made the wrong decision- 00:08:27,358 --> 00:08:27,358 [John] Right. Yep 00:08:27,358 --> 00:08:29,108 [Eric] ... strategically and- 00:08:29,108 --> 00:08:30,298 [John] Yeah. Technically too [chuckles] 00:08:30,298 --> 00:08:30,648 [Eric] ... and technically. 00:08:30,648 --> 00:08:31,548 [John] Right. 00:08:31,548 --> 00:08:35,388 [Eric] And he flies to Japan, 00:08:36,527 --> 00:08:41,848 [Eric] meets with... They have a pretty high burn rate and- 00:08:41,848 --> 00:08:42,218 [John] Yeah. Right 00:08:42,218 --> 00:08:43,308 [Eric] ... they're running out of money. 00:08:43,308 --> 00:08:44,328 [John] Mm-hmm. 00:08:44,328 --> 00:08:47,588 [Eric] He flies to Japan, goes and meets with the CEO of Sega. 00:08:47,588 --> 00:08:48,468 [John] Yep. 00:08:48,468 --> 00:08:57,268 [Eric] And he just tells him directly, "We cannot deliver what we are contractually obligated to deliver because- 00:08:57,328 --> 00:08:57,608 [John] Right 00:08:57,608 --> 00:08:59,548 [Eric] ... we made the wrong choices." 00:08:59,548 --> 00:09:00,278 [John] Yeah. 00:09:00,278 --> 00:09:08,548 [Eric] "But my company is going to die unless you give me $5 million." 00:09:10,868 --> 00:09:14,268 [Eric] Which I don't know if that was the contract value, but I think it was somehow related- 00:09:14,268 --> 00:09:14,338 [John] Yeah 00:09:14,338 --> 00:09:14,627 [Eric] ... to the contract value. 00:09:14,628 --> 00:09:15,448 [John] Right. Yeah. 00:09:15,448 --> 00:09:18,518 [Eric] So I can't deliver it, but I still need you to pay me. 00:09:18,518 --> 00:09:19,188 [John] To pay the rest of the contract. 00:09:19,188 --> 00:09:19,548 [Eric] Yeah. 00:09:19,548 --> 00:09:20,268 [John] Yeah. Right. 00:09:20,268 --> 00:09:22,888 [Eric] And, or my company's going to die. 00:09:22,888 --> 00:09:23,888 [John] Uh-huh. 00:09:23,888 --> 00:09:28,968 [Eric] And I think he said, "I think we know what to do now to make it work." 00:09:28,968 --> 00:09:29,608 [John] Right. 00:09:29,608 --> 00:09:33,028 [Eric] And he said the guy said, "I'll think about it." 00:09:33,028 --> 00:09:33,248 [John] Right. 00:09:33,248 --> 00:09:34,988 [Eric] Which is an outlandish ask. 00:09:34,988 --> 00:09:35,058 [John] Yeah. 00:09:35,058 --> 00:09:36,028 [Eric] I mean... 00:09:36,028 --> 00:09:41,048 [John] Well, he did say he went into detail about why they thought it would work, why it didn't work, what their plan, you know. 00:09:41,048 --> 00:09:41,228 [Eric] Yeah. 00:09:41,228 --> 00:09:42,148 [John] What the plan was. 00:09:42,148 --> 00:09:43,488 [Eric] He was very straightforward. 00:09:43,488 --> 00:09:43,828 [John] Right. 00:09:43,828 --> 00:09:46,188 [Eric] He said, "We made bad choices." 00:09:46,188 --> 00:09:46,418 [John] Right. 00:09:46,418 --> 00:09:49,708 [Eric] "But we believe that we know how to do it now." 00:09:49,708 --> 00:09:50,268 [John] Right. 00:09:50,268 --> 00:09:53,588 [Eric] And the guy took a couple days to think about it. 00:09:53,588 --> 00:09:53,948 [John] Yeah. 00:09:53,948 --> 00:09:59,148 [Eric] Which I keep thinking about him in a hotel room in Japan, 00:10:00,348 --> 00:10:04,468 [Eric] the technology back then for remote communication. 00:10:06,288 --> 00:10:09,638 [Eric] What year would that have been? You're still paying a lot of money- 00:10:09,638 --> 00:10:09,648 [John] '90s 00:10:09,648 --> 00:10:12,578 [Eric] ... to communicate internationally like that. 00:10:12,578 --> 00:10:12,578 [John] Right. 00:10:13,908 --> 00:10:15,048 [John] I think late '90s, right? 00:10:15,048 --> 00:10:16,028 [Eric] Yeah. 00:10:16,028 --> 00:10:16,648 [John] Yeah. 00:10:16,648 --> 00:10:28,088 [Eric] And I just think about him sitting in a hotel room. Anyways, the guy comes back and he's like, "Sure." And so they invested $5 million in the company, and it would've died if that didn't happen. 00:10:28,088 --> 00:10:28,097 [John] Right. 00:10:28,097 --> 00:10:32,288 [Eric] A couple of things here that are really astounding to me. 00:10:33,688 --> 00:10:40,428 [Eric] One is that he went through the trouble of personally visiting 00:10:42,168 --> 00:10:44,648 [Eric] the CEO of Sega. 00:10:44,648 --> 00:10:45,028 [John] Yeah. 00:10:45,028 --> 00:10:46,528 [Eric] And just coming clean. 00:10:46,528 --> 00:10:46,547 [John] Right. 00:10:46,548 --> 00:10:50,177 [Eric] And not trying to sugarcoat it, at least from the way that he tells the story. 00:10:50,177 --> 00:10:50,187 [John] Right. 00:10:50,188 --> 00:10:53,408 [Eric] Which if you listen to the episode, I believe him. 00:10:53,408 --> 00:10:54,528 [John] Yeah. 00:10:54,528 --> 00:10:55,308 [Eric] Just saying, "I 00:10:56,568 --> 00:11:00,578 [Eric] am responsible for these bad decisions. We can't deliver this." And then 00:11:01,908 --> 00:11:06,328 [Eric] having the audacity to [chuckles] say, "I still want you to pay me"- 00:11:06,328 --> 00:11:06,928 [John] Right 00:11:06,928 --> 00:11:10,708 [Eric] ... is incredible. But catching that early and just calling it out, I think is- 00:11:10,708 --> 00:11:11,628 [John] Right 00:11:11,628 --> 00:11:12,988 [Eric] ... is really significant. 00:11:12,988 --> 00:11:22,628 [John] Well, and he said this as a throwaway line, which is so true, and I think it's even more true today than it would've been in 1990, whatever, eight. 00:11:24,368 --> 00:11:27,968 [John] He's like, "I got that money because the guy liked me." 00:11:27,968 --> 00:11:28,748 [Eric] Yes. 00:11:28,748 --> 00:11:31,188 [John] And that likability- 00:11:31,188 --> 00:11:31,198 [Eric] Yes 00:11:31,198 --> 00:11:44,108 [John] ... thing, like we were talking about this a few minutes ago, we were talking about content and promoting things. The likability thing is about you've got some brand, you can have a brand that's likable and people that are likable- 00:11:44,108 --> 00:11:44,128 [Eric] Mm-hmm 00:11:44,128 --> 00:11:45,688 [John] ... some combination thereof. 00:11:45,688 --> 00:11:46,608 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:11:46,608 --> 00:11:49,948 [John] At least if you're in tech. That's what you have as your differentiator. 00:11:49,948 --> 00:11:50,608 [Eric] Yeah. 00:11:50,608 --> 00:11:51,908 [John] There's some 00:11:53,108 --> 00:11:53,828 [John] edges- 00:11:53,828 --> 00:11:53,888 [Eric] Mm-hmm 00:11:53,888 --> 00:11:57,508 [John] ... where I think you can differentiate still with tech, but for most people, it's going to be that. 00:11:57,508 --> 00:11:58,268 [Eric] Yeah. 00:11:58,268 --> 00:11:58,367 [John] Which is crazy. 00:11:58,368 --> 00:12:08,088 [Eric] I remember early in my career in tech, and we'll just say it's sort of like Silicon Valley tech. 00:12:08,088 --> 00:12:08,268 [John] Yep. 00:12:10,888 --> 00:12:16,358 [Eric] Where it was sort of true B2B enterprise tech sales. 00:12:16,358 --> 00:12:16,388 [John] Yes. 00:12:16,388 --> 00:12:17,688 [Eric] My first exposure to that, 00:12:18,888 --> 00:12:22,368 [Eric] which is kind of crazy- 00:12:22,368 --> 00:12:22,628 [John] Yeah 00:12:22,628 --> 00:12:23,438 [Eric] ... if you've never sort of- 00:12:23,438 --> 00:12:23,568 [John] Right 00:12:23,568 --> 00:12:24,148 [Eric] ... experienced it. 00:12:24,148 --> 00:12:24,668 [John] Right. 00:12:27,768 --> 00:12:34,307 [Eric] And what's crazy about it isJust the way that software margins work and the psychology behind- 00:12:34,308 --> 00:12:34,468 [John] Right 00:12:34,468 --> 00:12:37,268 [Eric] ... sales, salespeople, motivation, incentives. 00:12:37,268 --> 00:12:37,648 [John] Yeah. 00:12:37,648 --> 00:12:38,288 [Eric] It's fascinating, right? 00:12:38,288 --> 00:12:39,927 [John] Yeah, especially with enterprise B2B deals. 00:12:39,928 --> 00:12:42,598 [Eric] Yeah, and it can be extremely lucrative. 00:12:42,598 --> 00:12:42,608 [John] Sure. 00:12:42,608 --> 00:12:44,108 [Eric] Like mind-bogglingly lucrative. 00:12:45,788 --> 00:12:51,688 [Eric] And I remember someone telling me, like a seasoned sales leader saying, 00:12:52,788 --> 00:12:56,928 [Eric] "People like to buy from people that they like." 00:12:56,928 --> 00:12:57,188 [John] Yeah. 00:12:57,188 --> 00:12:57,948 [Eric] And so he's like- 00:12:57,948 --> 00:12:58,348 [John] Yeah 00:12:58,348 --> 00:13:08,968 [Eric] ... "Everyone likes to talk about the product," which certainly does play a role, but he's like, "Really, at the end of the day, if you have two products that are 00:13:10,768 --> 00:13:14,508 [Eric] on an even playing field as far as feature parity, functionality, et cetera- 00:13:14,508 --> 00:13:14,948 [John] Mm-hmm 00:13:14,948 --> 00:13:17,708 [Eric] ... they will just buy from the person that they like." 00:13:17,708 --> 00:13:18,168 [John] Yeah. 00:13:18,168 --> 00:13:18,708 [Eric] You know? 00:13:18,708 --> 00:13:26,228 [John] Well, yeah. It's true, and I think we're going to continue down that road where, say you're going to buy a CRM- 00:13:26,228 --> 00:13:26,948 [Eric] Mm-hmm 00:13:26,948 --> 00:13:38,868 [John] ... like in 2026. It's like, okay, if you're at a certain size, you probably still just buy Salesforce, but maybe you're more of a mid-market company, and you're like, "I don't know. Which vibe do I like better?" 00:13:38,868 --> 00:13:38,978 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:13:38,978 --> 00:13:40,728 [John] "I just need a CRM." 00:13:40,728 --> 00:13:41,328 [Eric] Yeah. 00:13:41,328 --> 00:13:41,568 [John] You know? 00:13:42,728 --> 00:13:43,388 [Eric] For sure. 00:13:43,388 --> 00:13:43,767 [John] Yeah. 00:13:43,768 --> 00:13:59,028 [Eric] For sure. Okay. I don't know if I've ever told you this story. In fact, I don't know if I've told very many people this story, but the reason that story was really meaningful to me is that I have called investors to give money back. 00:13:59,028 --> 00:14:00,298 [John] Oh, okay. 00:14:00,298 --> 00:14:07,948 [Eric] Yeah. So I really identified with... It was definitely not at the scale, and I didn't fly to Japan. 00:14:07,948 --> 00:14:09,548 [John] It wasn't $5 million. [chuckles] 00:14:09,548 --> 00:14:11,508 [Eric] But no, it was a seed round. 00:14:11,508 --> 00:14:13,288 [John] Mm-hmm. 00:14:13,288 --> 00:14:14,188 [Eric] But it was meaningful. 00:14:14,188 --> 00:14:14,908 [John] Yeah. Sure. 00:14:14,908 --> 00:14:16,528 [Eric] It was $750,000. 00:14:16,528 --> 00:14:17,878 [John] Yeah. That's super meaningful. 00:14:17,878 --> 00:14:19,038 [Eric] Of institutional capital. 00:14:19,038 --> 00:14:19,648 [John] Yeah. Mm-hmm. 00:14:19,648 --> 00:14:20,108 [Eric] And 00:14:21,708 --> 00:14:25,848 [Eric] we had built a startup in the ad tech space. 00:14:25,848 --> 00:14:26,108 [John] Okay. 00:14:26,108 --> 00:14:31,288 [Eric] Which, like Jensen, that was a bad strategic [chuckles] decision- 00:14:31,288 --> 00:14:31,338 [John] Yeah 00:14:31,338 --> 00:14:32,888 [Eric] ... because ad tech is the worst. 00:14:32,888 --> 00:14:33,028 [John] Yeah. 00:14:35,468 --> 00:14:39,218 [Eric] But it was a very interesting idea, and early in the days of the company, 00:14:40,788 --> 00:14:44,188 [Eric] we had a pilot running with Motley Fool. 00:14:44,188 --> 00:14:45,148 [John] Nice. Yeah. 00:14:45,148 --> 00:14:46,508 [Eric] And so it was like, "This is cool." 00:14:46,508 --> 00:14:46,618 [John] Yeah. 00:14:46,618 --> 00:14:48,268 [Eric] "There's an actual need here." 00:14:48,268 --> 00:14:48,848 [John] Super cool. Right. 00:14:48,908 --> 00:14:50,888 [Eric] And we'll do an episode, and I can tell- 00:14:50,888 --> 00:14:51,148 [John] Yeah 00:14:51,148 --> 00:14:55,188 [Eric] ... the whole story about the product, which is really interesting. But 00:14:57,408 --> 00:15:03,008 [Eric] shortly after we started the pilot with Motley Fool, COVID hit. And if you remember, 00:15:04,388 --> 00:15:08,857 [Eric] COVID became one of the biggest boons in digital advertising in the last- 00:15:08,857 --> 00:15:08,857 [John] Mm-hmm 00:15:08,857 --> 00:15:09,828 [Eric] ... several decades. 00:15:09,828 --> 00:15:10,308 [John] Yeah. 00:15:10,308 --> 00:15:12,278 [Eric] But it wasn't like that at the beginning. 00:15:12,278 --> 00:15:12,308 [John] Right. 00:15:12,308 --> 00:15:14,838 [Eric] In the first six months, everyone was scared. 00:15:14,838 --> 00:15:14,848 [John] Yeah. 00:15:14,848 --> 00:15:16,368 [Eric] Budgets got pulled back- 00:15:16,368 --> 00:15:16,448 [John] Yeah 00:15:16,448 --> 00:15:19,438 [Eric] ... and people went back to just doing what they knew would work. 00:15:19,438 --> 00:15:19,448 [John] Right. 00:15:19,448 --> 00:15:21,928 [Eric] Because there was a lot of uncertainty, right? 00:15:21,928 --> 00:15:22,368 [John] Yep. 00:15:22,368 --> 00:15:25,098 [Eric] And there was a lot of carnage. Local businesses are closing. 00:15:25,098 --> 00:15:25,608 [John] Mm-hmm. 00:15:25,608 --> 00:15:25,758 [Eric] And 00:15:26,828 --> 00:15:28,388 [Eric] it was a very difficult time for a lot of- 00:15:28,388 --> 00:15:28,398 [John] Right 00:15:28,398 --> 00:15:31,188 [Eric] ... businesses, right? And so during that winter, 00:15:32,408 --> 00:15:34,028 [Eric] it basically killed the startup- 00:15:34,028 --> 00:15:34,038 [John] Right 00:15:34,038 --> 00:15:37,248 [Eric] ... because it's like, okay, no one's doing anything experimental right now- 00:15:37,248 --> 00:15:37,417 [John] Yeah 00:15:37,417 --> 00:15:38,248 [Eric] ... with advertising. 00:15:38,248 --> 00:15:39,368 [John] Right. 00:15:39,368 --> 00:15:40,468 [Eric] And so I remember 00:15:42,388 --> 00:15:42,768 [Eric] we 00:15:44,848 --> 00:15:45,938 [Eric] let people go, literally- 00:15:45,938 --> 00:15:45,938 [John] Yeah 00:15:45,938 --> 00:15:54,417 [Eric] ... because of that, because it was like, okay, well, we were either going to have successful pilots and go raise additional capital, or figure something out. 00:15:54,417 --> 00:15:54,428 [John] Right. 00:15:54,428 --> 00:15:59,348 [Eric] But we had several engineers who were cranking. And I remember 00:16:01,408 --> 00:16:03,228 [Eric] walking into the office one day and saying, 00:16:04,838 --> 00:16:06,268 [Eric] "This isn't going to work." 00:16:06,268 --> 00:16:06,658 [John] Right. 00:16:06,658 --> 00:16:11,728 [Eric] "The survival likelihood is so low." And so I called the 00:16:14,488 --> 00:16:18,888 [Eric] lead investor and I said, "Hey, this isn't going to work. Would you like your money back?" 00:16:18,888 --> 00:16:19,048 [John] Yeah. 00:16:20,248 --> 00:16:20,608 [John] That's cool. 00:16:20,608 --> 00:16:21,608 [Eric] That's different than what- 00:16:21,608 --> 00:16:21,888 [John] Yeah 00:16:21,888 --> 00:16:24,078 [Eric] ... Jensen did, but a similar thing where it's like- 00:16:24,078 --> 00:16:24,078 [John] Yeah 00:16:24,078 --> 00:16:25,148 [Eric] ... this is a problem. 00:16:25,148 --> 00:16:30,648 [John] Yeah. Well, and you could've lied to yourself and been like, "Well, let's give it a few more months." 00:16:30,648 --> 00:16:30,908 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:16:30,908 --> 00:16:31,368 [John] You know? 00:16:31,368 --> 00:16:32,528 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:16:32,528 --> 00:16:33,908 [John] But yeah. That is cool. 00:16:33,908 --> 00:16:34,008 [Eric] Yeah. 00:16:34,008 --> 00:16:34,868 [John] I had not heard that story. 00:16:34,868 --> 00:16:35,638 [Eric] Yeah. It was wild. 00:16:35,638 --> 00:16:37,548 [John] Do you remember Jensen's second story where they almost 00:16:40,468 --> 00:16:41,348 [John] died again? [chuckles] 00:16:41,348 --> 00:16:43,608 [Eric] Yes. Okay. I'm going to try to recount this, 00:16:45,268 --> 00:16:47,327 [Eric] because it's a long episode, so I listened to it in different- 00:16:47,327 --> 00:16:47,588 [John] Yeah 00:16:47,588 --> 00:16:48,298 [Eric] ... contexts. 00:16:48,298 --> 00:16:48,308 [John] Yeah. 00:16:48,308 --> 00:16:52,028 [Eric] And so this one, I was at the gym, I think- 00:16:52,028 --> 00:16:52,277 [John] Okay 00:16:52,277 --> 00:16:53,608 [Eric] ... doing like, you know. 00:16:53,608 --> 00:16:55,928 [John] There you go. There's a good memory palace hack for you. 00:16:55,928 --> 00:16:57,028 [Eric] Yes, exactly. 00:16:57,028 --> 00:16:57,298 [John] I was at the gym. I was doing this. 00:16:57,298 --> 00:16:58,328 [Eric] I was at the gym. No, seriously. 00:16:58,328 --> 00:16:58,337 [John] Yeah. 00:16:58,337 --> 00:17:00,848 [Eric] I was doing deadlifts or something. 00:17:00,848 --> 00:17:01,668 [John] Okay. Perfect. 00:17:01,668 --> 00:17:02,178 [Eric] Anyways, 00:17:05,008 --> 00:17:05,728 [Eric] they 00:17:07,028 --> 00:17:08,668 [Eric] needed to get a chip to market. 00:17:08,668 --> 00:17:08,788 [John] Yep. 00:17:11,188 --> 00:17:14,688 [Eric] And I think they had a customer for it. 00:17:17,628 --> 00:17:17,808 [John] Yes. 00:17:17,808 --> 00:17:20,368 [Eric] Or they had orders for it, but they- 00:17:20,368 --> 00:17:21,988 [John] They had a big PO, that was part of it. 00:17:21,988 --> 00:17:29,288 [Eric] They had a big PO, but in order to deliver it on time, they couldn't go through a full testing cycle. 00:17:29,288 --> 00:17:30,288 [John] Correct. Yeah. 00:17:30,288 --> 00:17:32,218 [Eric] And so he 00:17:35,408 --> 00:17:37,508 [Eric] knew that someone was working on an emulator- 00:17:37,508 --> 00:17:37,928 [John] Yep 00:17:37,928 --> 00:17:40,268 [Eric] ... that would essentially emulate the chip and test- 00:17:40,268 --> 00:17:40,548 [John] Mm-hmm 00:17:40,548 --> 00:17:42,648 [Eric] ... it without actually testing the hardware. 00:17:42,648 --> 00:17:43,548 [John] Yep. 00:17:43,548 --> 00:17:48,668 [Eric] And he called the company, and the company said, "We just went out of business." 00:17:48,668 --> 00:17:48,858 [John] Right. 00:17:48,858 --> 00:17:50,278 [Eric] "We're not a company anymore." 00:17:50,278 --> 00:17:50,278 [John] Right. 00:17:50,278 --> 00:17:54,648 [Eric] And he's like, "But I really need one of your emulators." And they were like, "Well, just buy one from us- 00:17:54,648 --> 00:17:54,738 [John] Yeah 00:17:54,738 --> 00:17:56,068 [Eric] ... but we're not in business." 00:17:56,068 --> 00:17:58,628 [John] Right. And I think they had one left. 00:17:58,628 --> 00:18:10,788 [Eric] They had one left in inventory, and so they were like, "You can buy it." So they buy the emulator. No one had ever sent a chip to a foundry without- 00:18:10,788 --> 00:18:11,088 [John] Yes 00:18:11,088 --> 00:18:12,808 [Eric] ... actually testing it first. 00:18:12,808 --> 00:18:13,688 [John] Yep. 00:18:13,688 --> 00:18:14,168 [Eric] And 00:18:15,988 --> 00:18:20,588 [Eric] no one had really used an emulator the way that they were doing it. And so 00:18:22,108 --> 00:18:27,688 [Eric] they buy this emulator with a huge amount of money. I think it wasn't cheap. 00:18:28,788 --> 00:18:30,488 [John] It was over a million dollars. 00:18:30,488 --> 00:18:31,098 [Eric] Over a million dollars. 00:18:31,098 --> 00:18:32,448 [John] And they had, like, two million in the bank. 00:18:32,448 --> 00:18:32,558 [Eric] Yeah. 00:18:32,558 --> 00:18:33,967 [John] It was something crazy. 00:18:33,968 --> 00:18:34,508 [Eric] It was crazy. 00:18:34,508 --> 00:18:34,728 [John] Yeah. 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,200 [Eric] Double-digit percentage of their capital left- 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:39,210 [John] Correct 00:18:39,210 --> 00:18:39,740 [Eric] ... which was 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:42,420 [Eric] a lot, right? And so it was like, 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,200 [Eric] this is either going to work, or we're going to die. 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:47,060 [John] Right. 00:18:47,060 --> 00:18:49,840 [Eric] And he calls the foundry up. They'd run the test. 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:49,980 [John] Mm-hmm. 00:18:49,980 --> 00:18:50,880 [Eric] It's successful. 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:51,240 [John] Right. 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,590 [Eric] They call the foundry, and he says, "Just go straight to production." 00:18:54,590 --> 00:18:54,600 [John] Right. 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,300 [Eric] And he's like, "No testing, no anything." And the guy's like, "That is 00:18:59,460 --> 00:19:00,040 [Eric] insane." 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:00,130 [John] Yeah. Right. 00:19:00,130 --> 00:19:02,530 [Eric] "Like, absolute, like no one's ever done this before." 00:19:02,530 --> 00:19:02,880 [John] Right. 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,960 [Eric] And he's like, "How? Why are you doing this?" He's like, "Because I know it's going to work." [chuckles] 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:06,980 [John] Right. 00:19:06,980 --> 00:19:10,200 [Eric] But no one had ever done an emulator before. 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:10,520 [John] Yeah. 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:11,780 [Eric] And that's how it's done now. 00:19:11,780 --> 00:19:13,100 [John] Yeah. It's crazy. 00:19:13,100 --> 00:19:16,700 [Eric] They didn't plan to like... They just needed to meet the PO order- 00:19:16,700 --> 00:19:16,800 [John] Yeah 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,020 [Eric] ... which is crazy. How did I do? Was that- 00:19:20,020 --> 00:19:20,700 [John] No, that was perfect. 00:19:20,700 --> 00:19:21,420 [Eric] Okay. 00:19:21,420 --> 00:19:22,000 [John] Yeah. 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:23,830 [Eric] Maybe I need to podcast in the gym more often. 00:19:23,830 --> 00:19:27,700 [John] [chuckles] Yeah, maybe so. But it is funny, like... 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:36,360 [John] And I mean, both those are really great stories, but there's actually a book, I don't know if you've ever read it before. There's a guy, Ed Catmull- 00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:36,540 [Eric] Mm-mm 00:19:36,540 --> 00:19:37,420 [John] ... who was at Pixar, 00:19:38,490 --> 00:19:42,190 [John] [lips smack] and he tells this story in the book, "Creativity Inc.", I think, is the title of the book. 00:19:42,190 --> 00:19:43,240 [Eric] Oh, you've told me about this. 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:43,340 [John] Yeah. 00:19:43,340 --> 00:19:44,560 [Eric] You've told me about this. Yeah. 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:51,910 [John] So great book. [lips smack] And I find that there's a number of people that I feel like are the most honest with themselves, 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,360 [John] because anytime you sit down and interview with somebody that's been really successful- 00:19:56,360 --> 00:19:56,580 [Eric] Mm-hmm 00:19:56,580 --> 00:19:58,280 [John] ... there's two ways you can go. One, 00:19:59,340 --> 00:20:04,650 [John] like revisionist history about how everything lined up and how you impacted it and like how- 00:20:04,650 --> 00:20:04,650 [Eric] Right 00:20:04,650 --> 00:20:06,400 [John] ... things were so great because of what you did. 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:06,620 [Eric] Yep. 00:20:06,620 --> 00:20:08,860 [John] Right? Like, that's one version of the story. 00:20:08,860 --> 00:20:09,420 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:20:09,420 --> 00:20:16,900 [John] The other version of the story, which I think is more accurate, is all of the things that happened and how little control you had. 00:20:16,900 --> 00:20:17,340 [Eric] Mm. 00:20:17,340 --> 00:20:17,860 [John] Right? 00:20:17,860 --> 00:20:18,160 [Eric] Yep. 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,780 [John] And I feel like Jensen, at least from the stories, was more in line with that. 00:20:21,780 --> 00:20:22,400 [Eric] Yep. 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:27,480 [John] And so Ed Catmull tells the story in "Creativity Inc." about, I believe it's "Toy Story 2"- 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:27,840 [Eric] Mm-hmm 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:27,840 [John] ... 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:30,080 [John] one or two, I can't remember. 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:30,100 [Eric] Yep. 00:20:30,100 --> 00:20:34,780 [John] But it is one of the make or break movies for Pixar- 00:20:34,780 --> 00:20:34,900 [Eric] Yep 00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:40,060 [John] ... when they're new and like, "We're done if this one isn't- 00:20:40,060 --> 00:20:40,200 [Eric] Mm-hmm 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:41,120 [John] ... successful." 00:20:41,120 --> 00:20:41,900 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:20:41,900 --> 00:20:46,659 [John] So they're working on final cuts of this thing- 00:20:46,659 --> 00:20:46,669 [Eric] Mm-hmm 00:20:46,669 --> 00:20:52,760 [John] ... and for whatever reason, they lose all of the footage, like all of the work is gone. 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:54,340 [Eric] No. 00:20:54,340 --> 00:21:02,080 [John] Like all of the work is gone. Some kind of server crashes. No, it wasn't that. It was a human error. Somebody RMRF-ed- 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:02,270 [Eric] No. [chuckles] 00:21:02,270 --> 00:21:04,109 [John] ... like all of the files. 00:21:04,109 --> 00:21:04,120 [Eric] All of the- 00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:06,460 [John] That's like a Linux command to basically delete all the files. 00:21:06,460 --> 00:21:07,140 [Eric] Yeah. 00:21:07,140 --> 00:21:09,360 [John] [lips smack] And he's like, "We were 00:21:10,580 --> 00:21:22,580 [John] done. We are not going to hit the production deadlines. We're going to be out of capital. We were done." And there was a lady on the team who was on maternity leave and happened to have a full backup of everything to be able to work from home. 00:21:22,580 --> 00:21:23,460 [Eric] No. 00:21:23,460 --> 00:21:26,820 [John] And that is how they got the movie footage back and hit the deadline. 00:21:26,820 --> 00:21:27,600 [Eric] No. 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,640 [John] Yeah. Isn't that crazy? 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:34,780 [Eric] [chuckles] My gosh. Okay, let's think about this for a second. 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:41,260 [Eric] [lips smack] The feeling in the person's gut who RMRF-ed. 00:21:41,260 --> 00:21:42,020 [John] [chuckles] Right. 00:21:42,260 --> 00:21:50,100 [Eric] And it's one of those things where they probably initially were like, "Oh, wait. Maybe I didn't mean to do that." And then they realize... I mean, can you imagine? 00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:52,620 [John] And this is pre-AI. Like, that happens all the time with AI. 00:21:52,620 --> 00:21:53,380 [Eric] Oh, yeah. 00:21:53,380 --> 00:21:57,400 [John] Who cares? But yeah, I mean, who knows why that happened or how it happened. 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:57,880 [Eric] Right. 00:21:57,880 --> 00:21:58,440 [John] But- 00:21:58,440 --> 00:21:59,729 [Eric] And who... Yeah, I mean, 00:22:00,740 --> 00:22:02,780 [Eric] the circumstance. I mean, things happen. I don't know. 00:22:02,780 --> 00:22:02,840 [John] Right. 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:03,500 [Eric] Things happen- 00:22:03,500 --> 00:22:03,740 [John] Yeah, things happen 00:22:03,740 --> 00:22:09,280 [Eric] ... or whatever, but like RMRF-ing in a directory that includes everything [chuckles] is pretty wild. 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:09,300 [John] Yeah. 00:22:09,300 --> 00:22:12,419 [Eric] And then, okay, so I feel for that person- 00:22:12,420 --> 00:22:12,510 [John] Yeah 00:22:12,510 --> 00:22:12,820 [Eric] ... right? 00:22:12,820 --> 00:22:13,930 [John] For sure. 00:22:13,930 --> 00:22:14,700 [Eric] They'll, you know. 00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:19,240 [John] Right. Yeah, because there's at least a window of time where they're like, "I just sunk the whole company." 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:19,280 [Eric] Yeah. 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:19,820 [John] Legitimately. 00:22:19,820 --> 00:22:19,960 [Eric] Yeah. 00:22:21,220 --> 00:22:24,419 [Eric] I mean, it ends up to be the best story- 00:22:24,420 --> 00:22:24,449 [John] Yeah 00:22:24,449 --> 00:22:26,520 [Eric] ... where it's like, "I deleted 'Toy Story' and almost-" 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:26,570 [John] Yeah. 00:22:26,570 --> 00:22:27,680 [Eric] "... killed Pixar." 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:37,880 [John] Yeah. But from both of these, what I think is a helpful perspective and takeaway from all three of those stories is that I'm not actually in control of my life- 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:38,040 [Eric] 100% 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:39,660 [John] ... my company. 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,560 [Eric] Yep. Okay. I 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,760 [Eric] thought about this. So I talked with one of our mutual friends- 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:48,910 [John] Mm-hmm 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:54,920 [Eric] ... who we should have on the show sometime. But he's a CRO at a mid-market SaaS company. 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:55,060 [John] Yeah. 00:22:56,220 --> 00:23:01,599 [Eric] [lips smack] And they have a timeline for... They're private equity owned- 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:01,770 [John] Mm-hmm. Yeah 00:23:01,770 --> 00:23:04,360 [Eric] ... and so they have a timeline for exiting the company. 00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:04,400 [John] Sure. 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,920 [Eric] And I was chatting with him about... We try to catch up. 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:16,500 [Eric] We have the perfect lineup of 20 minutes to talk after we drop our kids off at the same time on Tuesday mornings. 00:23:16,500 --> 00:23:17,220 [John] Okay, great. Yeah. 00:23:17,220 --> 00:23:17,719 [Eric] And so- 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:18,580 [John] Uh-huh 00:23:18,580 --> 00:23:21,520 [Eric] ... I don't always pick up, he doesn't always pick up if we have other calls. 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:21,700 [John] Yes. 00:23:21,700 --> 00:23:23,180 [Eric] But there's like probably every- 00:23:23,180 --> 00:23:24,140 [John] Occasional magic windows 00:23:24,140 --> 00:23:25,940 [Eric] ... 50% of the time it works, and it's- 00:23:25,940 --> 00:23:26,040 [John] Right 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:26,839 [Eric] ... it's the best. 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:27,420 [John] Sure. 00:23:27,420 --> 00:23:33,599 [Eric] And so anyways, I was just asking him about, "How are you looking on the timeline to exit?" 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:33,730 [John] Yeah. 00:23:33,730 --> 00:23:41,280 [Eric] [lips smack] And suitors and all that sort of stuff. And his response was so wise. He's a very wise man- 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:41,589 [John] Yeah 00:23:41,589 --> 00:23:59,470 [Eric] ... generally. But his response was so wise. He said, "The only thing that we can keep doing is building a great business, because if there's anything I've learned, it's a timing and sort of market dynamics thing that it is impossible to put together." 00:23:59,470 --> 00:23:59,480 [John] Right. 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,420 [Eric] And so he talked about a company previously that he sold- 00:24:02,420 --> 00:24:02,630 [John] Mm-hmm 00:24:02,630 --> 00:24:05,130 [Eric] ... to the Active Network, which is a big- 00:24:05,130 --> 00:24:05,130 [John] Yeah 00:24:05,130 --> 00:24:06,850 [Eric] ... sports registration- 00:24:06,850 --> 00:24:06,990 [John] Mm-hmm. Yep 00:24:06,990 --> 00:24:10,880 [Eric] ... sporting event. So he sold a company to Active, 00:24:12,050 --> 00:24:21,400 [Eric] [lips smack] and I can't remember the exact reason, but Active was struggling to reach a certain particular segment of the market. 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:22,400 [John] Right. 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:29,600 [Eric] And instead of trying to build that muscle themselves, they decided to go look for companies to buy. 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:30,260 [John] Yeah. 00:24:30,260 --> 00:24:37,540 [Eric] And the venture team had a three-month window and a limited budget, and they ended up buying two companies. 00:24:37,540 --> 00:24:37,900 [John] Yeah. 00:24:37,900 --> 00:24:40,040 [Eric] And that was the window, right? 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:40,760 [John] Mm-hmm. 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,280 [Eric] You never could have predicted that timing. It was a very short window. 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:44,290 [John] Yeah. 00:24:44,290 --> 00:24:51,880 [Eric] It was a very specific market segment. And he was just like, "How could I have planned for that?" Right? It's impossible. 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:52,660 [John] Right. 00:24:52,660 --> 00:24:53,160 [Eric] Impossible. 00:24:54,340 --> 00:24:58,480 [Eric] I actually feel the same way about the Iron Yard. We sold it to a big- 00:24:58,480 --> 00:24:58,650 [John] Right 00:24:58,650 --> 00:24:59,240 [Eric] ... publicly education conglomerate. 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:09,340 [John] Yeah, we talked about this the other day, where you're saying basically there's kind of a lot of combination of code school, arc of popularity- 00:25:09,340 --> 00:25:09,540 [Eric] Mm-hmm 00:25:09,540 --> 00:25:11,140 [John] ... political environment. 00:25:11,140 --> 00:25:11,630 [Eric] Yep. 00:25:11,630 --> 00:25:12,100 [John] And, 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:14,400 [John] yeah. It was- 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:14,740 [Eric] Yeah. 00:25:14,740 --> 00:25:14,980 [John] Yeah. 00:25:14,980 --> 00:25:17,440 [Eric] You're coming off of the 2008 recession. 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:17,780 [John] Mm-hmm. 00:25:17,780 --> 00:25:19,420 [Eric] So you're several years after that, right? 00:25:19,420 --> 00:25:20,180 [John] Right. 00:25:20,180 --> 00:25:24,240 [Eric] And so that was a time where career mobility was limited, 00:25:26,100 --> 00:25:27,129 [Eric] or more limited- 00:25:27,129 --> 00:25:27,129 [John] Yeah 00:25:27,129 --> 00:25:28,380 [Eric] ... than it had been in the past. 00:25:28,380 --> 00:25:28,540 [John] Right. 00:25:30,460 --> 00:25:38,740 [Eric] Software, it's in the early 2010s, and so software is starting to just go crazier than it ever has. 00:25:38,740 --> 00:25:38,840 [John] Yeah. 00:25:40,220 --> 00:25:43,120 [Eric] And so demand for engineering talent is off the charts. 00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:43,260 [John] Yeah. 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:53,660 [Eric] But traditional computer science degrees, they're not teaching the modern frameworks, right? Everyone's building in Rails, they're building with React. 00:25:55,460 --> 00:25:57,780 [Eric] They're building sort of modern web applications stuff- 00:25:57,780 --> 00:25:57,960 [John] Right 00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:58,180 [Eric] ... right? 00:25:59,260 --> 00:26:07,620 [Eric] And universities aren't teaching that, so these CS grads come out, and Facebook's like, "Well, we need React engineers, and we need like 1,000." 00:26:07,620 --> 00:26:07,880 [John] Yeah. 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:08,670 [Eric] You know, whatever, right? 00:26:08,670 --> 00:26:09,550 [John] Right. 00:26:09,550 --> 00:26:11,830 [Eric] And so the market timing was really good from that standpoint, but 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:19,020 [Eric] the administration at that time had really tightened down restrictions on for-profit education. 00:26:20,100 --> 00:26:21,100 [John] Yeah. Right. 00:26:21,100 --> 00:26:27,960 [Eric] And that meant that this big publicly traded education conglomerate, 00:26:29,030 --> 00:26:33,880 [Eric] the regulatory environment completely changed for them, and it was way harder for them to make money. 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:34,400 [John] Right. 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,640 [Eric] So they started going out and looking for schools- 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:38,420 [John] Mm-hmm 00:26:38,420 --> 00:26:41,000 [Eric] ... that were figuring out how to operate in the environment- 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:41,220 [John] Right 00:26:41,220 --> 00:26:42,840 [Eric] ... of which we were one. 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:43,460 [John] Yeah. Right. 00:26:44,740 --> 00:26:47,930 [Eric] And so it was crazy. Just all those factors combined. 00:26:47,930 --> 00:26:52,120 [John] Yeah. All right. One more Jensen point to wrap on. 00:26:52,120 --> 00:26:52,340 [Eric] Yes. 00:26:52,340 --> 00:26:56,100 [John] The end, so he talks about his growing up and stuff in the end- 00:26:56,100 --> 00:26:56,300 [Eric] Yes 00:26:56,300 --> 00:26:56,840 [John] ... of the episode. 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,180 [John] Oneida Baptist Institute. 00:27:01,180 --> 00:27:01,520 [Eric] Yes. 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:01,850 [John] I believe- 00:27:01,850 --> 00:27:03,260 [Eric] I believe that's correct. In Kentucky. 00:27:03,260 --> 00:27:09,180 [John] In Kentucky. He spent like a year or two there when he first came to America. And 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:15,900 [John] you can share some of your memory of the conversation, but that was really remarkable. 00:27:15,900 --> 00:27:16,180 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:27:17,220 --> 00:27:26,080 [John] But yeah. Let's start. You can start because we were talking about this. Start with him kind of coming over and the story, him coming over from- 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:27,280 [Eric] Yeah. His- 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,580 [John] Because he's Chinese, but I think he came over from Taiwan. 00:27:29,580 --> 00:27:31,520 [Eric] He's Chinese, but his dad 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,920 [Eric] was doing a big project in Taiwan. 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:37,880 [John] Taiwan. Oh, that's right. Yeah. 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,040 [Eric] And I think it was some sort of refinery. 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:40,120 [John] Yeah. 00:27:40,120 --> 00:27:42,180 [Eric] So his dad was an engineer. 00:27:44,020 --> 00:27:47,420 [Eric] He didn't go into detail about this, but his parents were very poor. 00:27:47,420 --> 00:27:47,920 [John] Mm-hmm. 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:49,860 [Eric] And so I don't know if it was just- 00:27:49,860 --> 00:27:50,460 [John] Yeah 00:27:50,460 --> 00:27:53,800 [Eric] ... the government had him work- 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:53,860 [John] Right 00:27:53,860 --> 00:27:55,190 [Eric] ... on building an oil refinery, but- 00:27:55,190 --> 00:27:56,020 [John] Yeah. Who knows? Yeah. 00:27:57,360 --> 00:28:00,790 [Eric] The political environment was very tumultuous then- 00:28:00,790 --> 00:28:00,790 [John] Right 00:28:00,790 --> 00:28:01,820 [Eric] ... as it is today. 00:28:01,820 --> 00:28:02,340 [John] Right. 00:28:02,340 --> 00:28:09,120 [Eric] And his parents, they wanted to get them out of that- 00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:09,410 [John] Yeah 00:28:09,410 --> 00:28:09,520 [Eric] ... you know. 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,480 [John] It felt like environment it was the- 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:11,520 [Eric] Yep. Season six. 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:11,899 [John] Yeah. 00:28:11,900 --> 00:28:15,080 [Eric] So they sent him to an uncle that they'd never met in Washington. 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:16,480 [John] Yes. The kids had never met, yep. 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,020 [Eric] Yep. Nine and 12- 00:28:18,020 --> 00:28:18,130 [John] Mm-hmm. Yep 00:28:18,130 --> 00:28:19,940 [Eric] ... or somewhere around there, 9 and 11. 00:28:19,940 --> 00:28:20,720 [John] Yep. 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:26,120 [Eric] And the uncle was tasked with finding a school that his parents could afford, which meant it needed to be extremely- 00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:26,320 [John] Right 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:27,280 [Eric] ... cost-effective- 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:27,290 [John] Right 00:28:27,290 --> 00:28:28,740 [Eric] ... and would take these foreign kids, right? 00:28:28,740 --> 00:28:28,860 [John] Yeah. 00:28:28,860 --> 00:28:30,660 [Eric] I mean, they spoke English, but they weren't like- 00:28:30,660 --> 00:28:30,760 [John] Right. Yeah 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,060 [Eric] ... perfectly proficient at it 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:34,860 [Eric] because they were Chinese natives, right? 00:28:34,860 --> 00:28:35,020 [John] Yeah. 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:41,960 [Eric] And so the school that he found was Oneida Baptist Institute in Kentucky. I want to say it's Clark County, Kentucky. 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:42,280 [John] Yeah. 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:47,880 [Eric] Which he said was the poorest county when he went to school there, and is still the poorest- 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:48,680 [John] Like in the United States? 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:49,440 [Eric] In the United States. 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:49,760 [John] Yeah. 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:57,100 [Eric] And he gets into his room. His roommate's 17, he's 9. 00:28:57,100 --> 00:28:57,600 [John] Yep. 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,020 [Eric] His roommate smokes. 00:28:59,020 --> 00:28:59,260 [John] Right. 00:28:59,260 --> 00:29:02,720 [Eric] He's like, "Everyone smoked." 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:03,340 [John] Right. 00:29:03,340 --> 00:29:06,750 [Eric] And he was covered with bandages because he'd been in a knife fight. 00:29:06,750 --> 00:29:08,760 [John] [chuckles] Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:09,380 [Eric] Like bleeding. 00:29:09,380 --> 00:29:09,540 [John] Yeah. 00:29:09,540 --> 00:29:11,400 [Eric] He walks into his room, and there's this guy- 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:11,560 [John] Yeah 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,400 [Eric] ... who's like bleeding. 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:19,040 [John] And he's in the dorm for the older kids, but walks across the river, the street or whatever. 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:20,710 [Eric] Right. He walks a mile to go to the- 00:29:20,710 --> 00:29:22,440 [John] Yeah, to go to the junior high. 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:23,360 [Eric] Yes. 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,410 [John] But that one didn't have a dorm, so he was in the dorm with the- 00:29:26,410 --> 00:29:26,600 [Eric] Yes 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:27,660 [John] ... older kids was part of the thing. 00:29:27,660 --> 00:29:28,680 [Eric] Yep. 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:29,200 [John] But- 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:29,640 [Eric] Incredible 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:40,820 [John] ... he doesn't really go into detail on this too much, but I really wonder how that really shaped his life experience from living in that environment- 00:29:40,820 --> 00:29:40,920 [Eric] Mm-hmm 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:42,920 [John] ... interacting with people he never would've interacted with- 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:42,930 [Eric] Mm-hmm 00:29:42,930 --> 00:29:43,590 [John] ... obviously. 00:29:43,590 --> 00:29:44,050 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:29:44,050 --> 00:29:51,700 [John] I don't know anything about that school, but even the at least somewhat biblical perspective- 00:29:51,700 --> 00:29:51,860 [Eric] Mm-hmm 00:29:51,860 --> 00:29:56,100 [John] ... that was, I assume, part of that. I know nothing about the school. But like- 00:29:56,100 --> 00:29:57,590 [Eric] The name Oneida Baptist Institute- 00:29:57,590 --> 00:29:57,790 [John] Yeah 00:29:57,790 --> 00:30:00,300 [Eric] ... there's no way there wasn't chapel. 00:30:00,300 --> 00:30:00,760 [John] Yeah. 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:00,900 [Eric] You know? 00:30:00,900 --> 00:30:01,460 [John] There had to be. Yeah. 00:30:01,460 --> 00:30:03,020 [Eric] He definitely got exposure to that. 00:30:03,020 --> 00:30:03,380 [John] Yeah, but- 00:30:03,380 --> 00:30:04,120 [Eric] I do wonder. 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:04,150 [John] I just wonder how- 00:30:04,150 --> 00:30:07,160 [Eric] I do wonder his religious- 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:08,340 [John] Yeah 00:30:08,340 --> 00:30:09,100 [Eric] ... you know. 00:30:09,100 --> 00:30:09,620 [John] Yeah. 00:30:09,620 --> 00:30:10,620 [Eric] I wonder if he is- 00:30:10,620 --> 00:30:11,860 [John] I Googled it and- 00:30:11,860 --> 00:30:12,090 [Eric] Really? 00:30:12,090 --> 00:30:12,820 [John] ... it's unclear, yeah. 00:30:12,820 --> 00:30:14,110 [Eric] Okay. I mean that, yeah. 00:30:14,110 --> 00:30:14,780 [John] Makes sense. Yeah. 00:30:14,780 --> 00:30:17,380 [Eric] Especially if he hasn't done like a ton of interviews and stuff. 00:30:17,380 --> 00:30:20,440 [John] Right. But it must've been so formative, the whole experience- 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:20,620 [Eric] Oh 00:30:20,620 --> 00:30:21,759 [John] ... on a bunch of different levels. 00:30:22,950 --> 00:30:31,180 [Eric] I will tell you one thing from early in the episode that stuck out to me, and I didn't make the connection explicitly like you did. 00:30:31,180 --> 00:30:31,880 [John] Mm-hmm. 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:33,820 [Eric] So early in the episode, 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,700 [Eric] Joe Rogan is really pushing 00:30:38,860 --> 00:30:39,480 [Eric] Jensen- 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:40,080 [John] Mm-hmm 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:45,408 [Eric] ... on people are afraid ofAI. 00:30:45,408 --> 00:30:46,138 [John] Yes. Right. 00:30:46,138 --> 00:30:50,968 [Eric] People are scared. People are scared because of attacks and war. 00:30:50,968 --> 00:30:51,628 [John] Yeah. Right. 00:30:51,628 --> 00:30:53,408 [Eric] People are scared because of job 00:30:55,628 --> 00:30:56,288 [Eric] displacement. 00:30:58,588 --> 00:30:59,108 [Eric] And 00:31:01,028 --> 00:31:05,058 [Eric] he kind of pushes to the point where Jensen... It's not like a confrontational- 00:31:05,058 --> 00:31:05,058 [John] Right 00:31:05,058 --> 00:31:05,948 [Eric] ... interaction. 00:31:05,948 --> 00:31:06,088 [John] Right. 00:31:07,608 --> 00:31:10,458 [Eric] But the way that Jensen answers is 00:31:12,748 --> 00:31:14,348 [Eric] highly confident- 00:31:14,348 --> 00:31:14,558 [John] Mm-hmm 00:31:14,558 --> 00:31:16,548 [Eric] ... but also empathetic. 00:31:16,548 --> 00:31:17,468 [John] Yeah. 00:31:17,468 --> 00:31:19,868 [Eric] Where he is- 00:31:19,868 --> 00:31:19,878 [John] Right 00:31:19,878 --> 00:31:26,808 [Eric] ... he never gives you the impression that being scared is dumb. 00:31:26,808 --> 00:31:27,068 [John] Yeah. 00:31:27,068 --> 00:31:33,288 [Eric] It's like, "Why would you be scared? I know a lot about AI, and it's silly. Don't be scared." 00:31:33,288 --> 00:31:33,538 [John] Right. 00:31:33,538 --> 00:31:35,708 [Eric] "That's- 00:31:35,708 --> 00:31:35,718 [John] Yeah 00:31:35,718 --> 00:31:36,617 [Eric] ... unfounded fear," or whatever. 00:31:36,617 --> 00:31:36,617 [John] Mm-hmm. 00:31:38,508 --> 00:31:47,308 [Eric] He's like, "Sure, I understand that, but here's why I believe that- 00:31:47,308 --> 00:31:47,398 [John] Yeah 00:31:47,398 --> 00:31:49,568 [Eric] ... here's why I'm not worried," or whatever. 00:31:49,568 --> 00:31:59,928 [John] Right. Well, and I almost missed the best part of the whole interview, and I think you'll remember it once I say it. When I think Joe asked him, "Kind of what is your motivation? What do you do?" 00:32:01,168 --> 00:32:01,408 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:32:01,408 --> 00:32:02,088 [John] Like that thing. 00:32:02,088 --> 00:32:02,128 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:32:02,128 --> 00:32:13,548 [John] I don't know if you remember his answer for this, but his answer was so good. He basically was like, "Joe, I'm literally just trying to stay alive, I work all the time." 00:32:13,548 --> 00:32:14,368 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:32:14,368 --> 00:32:14,708 [John] "And 00:32:15,788 --> 00:32:24,608 [John] I do not have any grand plans or whatever. I'm just trying to survive." And it was just- 00:32:24,608 --> 00:32:25,488 [Eric] Not get fired. 00:32:25,488 --> 00:32:26,838 [John] Yeah. And not get fired. 00:32:26,838 --> 00:32:29,668 [Eric] He's like, "I don't want to get fired, and I don't want to fail." [chuckles] 00:32:29,668 --> 00:32:31,268 [John] Right. Yeah, I don't want to fail. 00:32:31,268 --> 00:32:31,528 [Eric] Yeah. 00:32:31,528 --> 00:32:32,228 [John] That was the perfect- 00:32:32,228 --> 00:32:32,668 [Eric] Yeah 00:32:32,668 --> 00:32:32,668 [John] ... 00:32:33,708 --> 00:32:42,228 [John] exactly what he said. And it was such like... And it's just the way he communicated, too, is like, that is one of the most honest answers that I've ever heard from a CEO. 00:32:42,228 --> 00:32:43,388 [Eric] Oh, it was unbelievable. 00:32:43,388 --> 00:32:44,908 [John] Like unbelievably honest. 00:32:44,908 --> 00:32:45,748 [Eric] Yeah. 00:32:45,748 --> 00:32:51,268 [John] And I think how I feel, how the majority of CEOs actually feel. 00:32:51,268 --> 00:32:51,468 [Eric] Mm. 00:32:51,468 --> 00:32:52,308 [John] That would be true. 00:32:52,308 --> 00:32:52,848 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:32:52,848 --> 00:32:53,828 [John] Or should be true. 00:32:53,828 --> 00:32:54,247 [Eric] Yeah. 00:32:54,248 --> 00:32:55,647 [John] Sometimes it's probably not, but- 00:32:55,647 --> 00:32:57,238 [Eric] Right. No, it was, 00:33:01,608 --> 00:33:03,928 [Eric] you just get the sense that he's so humble. 00:33:03,928 --> 00:33:04,168 [John] Right. 00:33:04,168 --> 00:33:11,208 [Eric] Because first of all, he talks about cratering the stock price from 12 billion to 4 billion- 00:33:11,208 --> 00:33:11,608 [John] Right 00:33:11,608 --> 00:33:15,217 [Eric] ... by making a bet that ended up making a lot of the early AI training- 00:33:15,217 --> 00:33:15,217 [John] Right 00:33:15,217 --> 00:33:17,328 [Eric] ... possible because they built this chip, and- 00:33:17,328 --> 00:33:17,668 [John] Yeah 00:33:17,668 --> 00:33:22,908 [Eric] ... I was like, "Okay, this is awesome," but he was like, "It was so expensive to build, twice as expensive as anything else." 00:33:22,908 --> 00:33:23,148 [John] Right. 00:33:23,148 --> 00:33:26,698 [Eric] And so he made the decision to do it anyways, which cratered the stock price. 00:33:26,698 --> 00:33:27,248 [John] Right. 00:33:27,248 --> 00:33:32,168 [Eric] You're talking about [chuckles] over 60% of the company value evaporating. 00:33:34,548 --> 00:33:40,788 [Eric] And Joe Rogan asked him, like, "Okay, what's it worth now?" And he said, "It's worth a lot more." 00:33:40,788 --> 00:33:41,208 [John] Yeah. 00:33:41,208 --> 00:33:43,388 [Eric] And Joe asked him two more times- 00:33:43,388 --> 00:33:43,448 [John] Yeah 00:33:43,448 --> 00:33:44,838 [Eric] ... I think. And 00:33:46,428 --> 00:33:47,788 [Eric] he won't say the number. 00:33:47,788 --> 00:33:48,628 [John] Yeah. 00:33:48,628 --> 00:33:49,388 [Eric] Which is- 00:33:49,388 --> 00:33:49,878 [John] Yeah 00:33:49,878 --> 00:33:52,437 [Eric] ... this is just so humble. And 00:33:54,028 --> 00:33:58,758 [Eric] yeah, I appreciated so much that there wasn't 00:34:00,128 --> 00:34:04,708 [Eric] the snake oil management strategy. 00:34:04,768 --> 00:34:04,988 [John] Right. 00:34:04,988 --> 00:34:05,628 [Eric] "Here 00:34:07,288 --> 00:34:11,448 [Eric] are the three major strategies I've learned as an executive leader." 00:34:11,448 --> 00:34:13,488 [John] I wrote down pull quotes from this. 00:34:13,488 --> 00:34:13,928 [Eric] Oh, yes. 00:34:13,928 --> 00:34:14,458 [John] Are you ready? 00:34:14,458 --> 00:34:14,747 [Eric] Perfect. 00:34:14,748 --> 00:34:20,128 [John] Okay. So the prompt was from Joe about around the success thing. 00:34:20,128 --> 00:34:20,388 [Eric] Yeah. 00:34:20,388 --> 00:34:25,288 [John] He says, "I have a greater drive from not wanting to fail than the drive of wanting to succeed." 00:34:25,288 --> 00:34:26,548 [Eric] Yes. Yeah. 00:34:26,548 --> 00:34:31,888 [John] The second one was, "The fear of failure drives me more than greed or whatever else." 00:34:31,888 --> 00:34:32,368 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:34:32,368 --> 00:34:37,298 [John] And he says, "I'm not ambitious, I just want to stay alive." [both laughing] 00:34:37,298 --> 00:34:37,848 [Eric] Yes. 00:34:37,848 --> 00:34:43,888 [John] And then he does give two pieces of advice. I don't know if you remember what they are. But the two piece of advice are, one, don't get fired. 00:34:43,888 --> 00:34:44,798 [Eric] That's right. That was the advice. 00:34:44,798 --> 00:34:44,988 [John] Which you already alluded to. 00:34:44,988 --> 00:34:45,648 [Eric] That's right, yeah. 00:34:45,648 --> 00:34:47,568 [John] But his second one was, don't get bored. 00:34:47,568 --> 00:34:48,668 [Eric] Oh, yeah. 00:34:48,668 --> 00:34:50,668 [John] Maintain that enthusiasm, and he said- 00:34:50,668 --> 00:34:51,238 [Eric] Right 00:34:51,238 --> 00:34:55,588 [John] ... "And the enthusiasm's going to come from some combination of fear and frustration." 00:34:55,588 --> 00:34:56,508 [Eric] Yep. 00:34:56,508 --> 00:35:00,388 [John] And those were the pull quotes, which I thought were so good. 00:35:00,388 --> 00:35:01,168 [Eric] So good. That's so good. 00:35:01,168 --> 00:35:03,868 [John] And they're simple and extremely honest. 00:35:03,868 --> 00:35:04,228 [Eric] Yeah. 00:35:04,228 --> 00:35:11,688 [John] And yeah. So either he is the absolute best gaslighter I've ever met in my entire life, or it's all real. And I like to think it's real. 00:35:11,688 --> 00:35:12,707 [Eric] I like to think it's real, too. 00:35:12,707 --> 00:35:13,428 [John] [laughs] 00:35:13,428 --> 00:35:21,408 [Eric] And I would say this. On such a smaller scale, it's 00:35:22,428 --> 00:35:27,707 [Eric] silly for us to compare our experience with Jensen Huang's experience. 00:35:27,708 --> 00:35:28,308 [John] For sure. 00:35:28,308 --> 00:35:28,508 [Eric] But 00:35:30,468 --> 00:35:32,508 [Eric] I've been an executive, you've been an executive. 00:35:33,768 --> 00:35:35,548 [Eric] I've been a founder, you've been a founder. 00:35:36,568 --> 00:35:39,338 [Eric] And what he 00:35:43,348 --> 00:35:52,858 [Eric] said is so true around if you get your ego out of the way, you realize that success is not guaranteed, no matter how much work you put in- 00:35:52,858 --> 00:35:52,858 [John] Yeah 00:35:52,858 --> 00:35:54,008 [Eric] ... no matter the strategies- 00:35:54,008 --> 00:35:54,078 [John] For sure 00:35:54,078 --> 00:35:56,868 [Eric] ... that you apply, right? Those are just all things that 00:35:58,948 --> 00:36:01,248 [Eric] hopefully make it more possible. 00:36:01,248 --> 00:36:01,528 [John] Right. 00:36:03,288 --> 00:36:07,928 [Eric] But he just says that so plainly. And I think what I would translate that into, 00:36:09,328 --> 00:36:12,388 [Eric] which he didn't use these words to describe himself- 00:36:12,388 --> 00:36:12,398 [John] Right 00:36:12,398 --> 00:36:17,548 [Eric] ... and he wouldn't, but is that he just doesn't take that stuff for granted, you know? 00:36:17,548 --> 00:36:17,828 [John] Right. 00:36:17,828 --> 00:36:22,008 [Eric] He seems like the type of guy who's like, "This thing's almost died multiple times." 00:36:22,008 --> 00:36:22,458 [John] Sure. 00:36:22,458 --> 00:36:28,448 [Eric] And he'd never let himself get to the point where he thought, "But I'm the one who..." 00:36:29,528 --> 00:36:30,588 [Eric] It wasn't this conceited like- 00:36:30,588 --> 00:36:30,888 [John] Yeah 00:36:30,888 --> 00:36:33,108 [Eric] ... "I saved the company multiple times." It was just like- 00:36:33,108 --> 00:36:33,118 [John] Right 00:36:33,118 --> 00:36:34,548 [Eric] ... "I'm so thankful- 00:36:34,548 --> 00:36:34,788 [John] Yeah 00:36:34,788 --> 00:36:38,088 [Eric] ... that I still get to do this." 00:36:38,088 --> 00:36:44,988 [John] Yeah. Well, and I think you and I would frame it as in like, God is actually in control of my life. 00:36:44,988 --> 00:36:45,608 [Eric] Right. Yeah. 00:36:45,608 --> 00:36:48,768 [John] And I don't know what he thinks, but that is the reality- 00:36:48,768 --> 00:36:49,038 [Eric] Yeah 00:36:49,038 --> 00:36:53,938 [John] ... here. And obviously, my effort matters, and my abilities matter, and things like that, too. 00:36:53,938 --> 00:36:53,948 [Eric] Right. 00:36:53,948 --> 00:37:11,352 [John] But that is the framing. And I think there's a lot of people that canMaybe if they don't believe in God, but have this parallel view that overlaps some of just being deeply aware of what they maybe would ascribe to chance- 00:37:11,352 --> 00:37:11,912 [Eric] Mm-hmm 00:37:11,912 --> 00:37:12,652 [John] ... in their life. 00:37:12,652 --> 00:37:13,312 [Eric] Mm-hmm. 00:37:13,312 --> 00:37:17,502 [John] That is the only other thing that at least creates some artificial humility- [chuckles] 00:37:17,502 --> 00:37:18,322 [Eric] Yeah. Manifesting 00:37:18,322 --> 00:37:23,952 [John] ... in people. Yeah. And then the third viewpoint being that, "I did it." 00:37:23,952 --> 00:37:25,152 [Eric] Yes. Yep. 00:37:25,152 --> 00:37:25,772 [John] And- 00:37:25,772 --> 00:37:25,972 [Eric] Yeah. 00:37:25,972 --> 00:37:26,912 [John] Yeah. 00:37:26,912 --> 00:37:32,552 [Eric] Yeah, and I think that it's really easy to mix the 00:37:33,612 --> 00:37:34,532 [Eric] second two of those. 00:37:34,532 --> 00:37:35,152 [John] Oh. 00:37:35,152 --> 00:37:35,442 [Eric] Where it's like- 00:37:35,442 --> 00:37:38,212 [John] Everybody has a mix of some of the three, even if you like- 00:37:38,212 --> 00:37:38,772 [Eric] Every... Yes. 00:37:38,772 --> 00:37:39,212 [John] Yeah. 00:37:39,212 --> 00:37:41,552 [Eric] Yes, for sure. Everyone has a mix of some of the three. 00:37:41,552 --> 00:37:42,132 [John] Yeah. 00:37:42,132 --> 00:37:43,612 [Eric] But one thing, this came up 00:37:45,452 --> 00:37:46,212 [Eric] recently. 00:37:47,232 --> 00:37:49,512 [Eric] It was over the holidays, and 00:37:51,472 --> 00:37:54,672 [Eric] I was just a couple of months into my job at- 00:37:54,672 --> 00:37:54,682 [John] Right 00:37:54,682 --> 00:37:55,322 [Eric] ... Vercel. 00:37:55,322 --> 00:37:56,282 [John] Mm-hmm. 00:37:56,282 --> 00:38:02,721 [Eric] [lips smack] And one of my brother-in-laws, they were asking me, "What are you working on?" And it's sort of like this is the heart of tech- 00:38:02,721 --> 00:38:02,852 [John] Right 00:38:02,852 --> 00:38:05,292 [Eric] ... in Silicon Valley and et cetera. 00:38:05,292 --> 00:38:05,391 [John] Yeah. 00:38:05,392 --> 00:38:05,992 [Eric] And 00:38:07,212 --> 00:38:15,912 [Eric] he asked a really interesting question. He's like, "10 years ago, would you sort of have imagined or were you aspiring to do the types of things that you do today?" 00:38:16,972 --> 00:38:20,671 [Eric] Which is a good question to sort of force some self-reflection. 00:38:20,672 --> 00:38:21,772 [John] Yeah. 00:38:21,772 --> 00:38:22,152 [Eric] And 00:38:23,232 --> 00:38:37,171 [Eric] it really made me sit back and think about my career path, and I said, "I don't know if I really knew..." I didn't have major career aspirations. 00:38:37,172 --> 00:38:37,192 [John] Right. 00:38:37,192 --> 00:38:40,292 [Eric] I didn't even have this dream of starting my own business- 00:38:40,292 --> 00:38:41,052 [John] Right 00:38:41,052 --> 00:38:42,992 [Eric] ... much less selling a business- 00:38:42,992 --> 00:38:43,002 [John] Right 00:38:43,002 --> 00:38:44,692 [Eric] ... or starting multiple businesses. 00:38:44,692 --> 00:38:47,472 [John] Mm-hmm. 00:38:47,472 --> 00:38:59,311 [Eric] And in fact, I would've told you a year ago that going to work for a company just as an individual contributor, I would've been like, "That does absolutely not sound like the-" 00:38:59,312 --> 00:39:00,142 [John] Right. 00:39:00,142 --> 00:39:04,112 [Eric] "It doesn't sound like where my trajectory would take me based on all of my experience or whatever." 00:39:04,112 --> 00:39:04,292 [John] Right. 00:39:05,492 --> 00:39:06,792 [Eric] [lips smack] But I said, "I think 00:39:08,112 --> 00:39:16,012 [Eric] it would be easy for me to go back and, like you said, do revisionist history, and sort of talk about how I leveraged these experiences- 00:39:16,012 --> 00:39:16,202 [John] Right 00:39:16,202 --> 00:39:16,952 [Eric] ... into the next one- 00:39:16,952 --> 00:39:17,282 [John] Do this, to do that. Yeah 00:39:17,282 --> 00:39:20,102 [Eric] ... and whatever, right? And in reality, 00:39:22,172 --> 00:39:25,812 [Eric] all of the major career moves I've had have been surprising. 00:39:25,812 --> 00:39:25,872 [John] Yeah. 00:39:25,872 --> 00:39:28,452 [Eric] And God has just opened doors- 00:39:28,452 --> 00:39:29,232 [John] Right 00:39:29,232 --> 00:39:29,232 [Eric] ... 00:39:31,612 --> 00:39:34,672 [Eric] open even at times that are really not opportune- 00:39:34,672 --> 00:39:34,762 [John] Right 00:39:34,762 --> 00:39:40,852 [Eric] ... and in ways that seem very counterintuitive. And in fact, I remember even with this latest one coming to Vercel, 00:39:42,112 --> 00:39:43,232 [Eric] I talked with you about this. 00:39:43,232 --> 00:39:45,252 [John] You were seriously considering a different thing. 00:39:45,252 --> 00:39:46,181 [Eric] Yeah. I was going to start a company. 00:39:46,181 --> 00:39:46,812 [John] And almost did something else. 00:39:46,812 --> 00:39:47,172 [Eric] Yeah. 00:39:47,172 --> 00:39:47,492 [John] Yeah. 00:39:47,492 --> 00:39:50,232 [Eric] And I mean, I did. I had literally had- 00:39:50,232 --> 00:39:51,232 [John] Yeah, you were on the- 00:39:51,232 --> 00:39:51,532 [Eric] Yeah. 00:39:51,532 --> 00:39:52,772 [John] Yeah. Sure. Yeah. 00:39:54,332 --> 00:39:56,772 [Eric] And it was surprising to me. But 00:39:58,912 --> 00:40:00,662 [Eric] my wife and I prayed about and just had peace about it. 00:40:00,662 --> 00:40:00,672 [John] Yeah. 00:40:00,672 --> 00:40:02,712 [Eric] And that's really how all of them have 00:40:03,912 --> 00:40:04,842 [Eric] transpired, right? 00:40:04,842 --> 00:40:04,852 [John] Yeah. 00:40:04,852 --> 00:40:08,612 [Eric] And so I think that it is that illusion of control- 00:40:08,612 --> 00:40:08,621 [John] Yeah 00:40:08,621 --> 00:40:09,892 [Eric] ... and I think Jensen Huang, 00:40:12,712 --> 00:40:18,012 [Eric] I don't think that he is blinded by the illusion of control. 00:40:18,012 --> 00:40:18,082 [John] Yeah. 00:40:18,082 --> 00:40:19,032 [Eric] Which is really cool. 00:40:19,032 --> 00:40:20,252 [John] Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. 00:40:20,252 --> 00:40:20,262 [Eric] For good reasons. 00:40:20,262 --> 00:40:24,152 [John] And I've very much had a similar experience of, "All right. I'm 00:40:25,732 --> 00:40:28,992 [John] going to do something else. I want to do something else," and it's like, "What 00:40:30,092 --> 00:40:31,052 [John] do I even do?" 00:40:31,052 --> 00:40:33,232 [Eric] Right. When you left your CTO role. 00:40:33,232 --> 00:40:33,991 [John] Yeah, exactly. 00:40:33,992 --> 00:40:35,232 [Eric] Yeah. 00:40:35,232 --> 00:40:39,612 [John] Just felt a lot of blessing, and from God and from people around me- 00:40:39,612 --> 00:40:40,372 [Eric] Mm-hmm 00:40:40,372 --> 00:40:41,572 [John] ... who are just so great. 00:40:41,572 --> 00:40:41,712 [Eric] Yeah. 00:40:43,072 --> 00:40:44,332 [John] But yeah. Well, there you go. That's- 00:40:44,332 --> 00:40:44,712 [Eric] There you go 00:40:44,712 --> 00:40:45,052 [John] ... that's the episode here. 00:40:45,052 --> 00:40:49,901 [Eric] Jensen Huang, meta episode, episode about another episode. [chuckles] 00:40:49,901 --> 00:40:49,912 [John] Yeah. [chuckles] 00:40:49,912 --> 00:40:51,032 [Eric] Maybe we'll do that again. 00:40:51,032 --> 00:40:51,312 [John] Yeah. 00:40:51,312 --> 00:40:52,552 [Eric] But it's so good that we had to. 00:40:52,552 --> 00:40:52,592 [John] Right. 00:40:52,592 --> 00:40:54,152 [Eric] So please go listen to it. 00:40:54,152 --> 00:40:55,252 [John] Yeah. Listen to the real episode. 00:40:55,252 --> 00:40:55,442 [Eric] Yeah. 00:40:55,442 --> 00:40:55,472 [John] For sure. 00:40:55,472 --> 00:40:56,482 [Eric] Listen to the real episode. 00:40:56,482 --> 00:40:56,532 [John] Yeah. 00:40:56,532 --> 00:40:58,892 [Eric] All right. We'll catch you on the next one.